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[APD] RE: Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 4, Issue 97
Can someone help to clarify my concept on High Output Fluorescent tube
as follow:
"By replacing my ordinary fluorescent tube with a high output one, I'll
get twice or even thrice the normal output with the same lighting gear"
Tony
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Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2003 10:31 AM
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Subject: Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 4, Issue 97
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: comparison of PMDD and Toms method side by side please
(Giancarlo Podio)
2. Happy Holidays APD (Berne Kairunas)
3. Disabled Subscriptions (cyn at metronet_com)
4. comparison of PMDD and Toms method side by side please (Candy M.)
5. N budget (Steve Pushak)
6. Is this Bacopa carolina? (Steven Pituch)
7. Re: Is this Bacopa carolina? (Steven Pituch)
8. Sulphates (Ed Dumas)
9. Re: Sulphates (Rex Grigg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:15:27 -0500
From: "Giancarlo Podio" <gp at isaconsulting_com>
Subject: [APD] Re: comparison of PMDD and Toms method side by side
please
To: <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
"Could someone explain in newbie terms what is the main dif between PMDD
and
Toms formula, near as I can tell Toms supplements phosphates also where
as
the pmdd limits them. I am admittedly a confused planted tank newbie.
Sort
of a side by side compare/contrast."
Candy,
I am going to limit myself to giving you the 10000 foot view as I see
it.
The PMDD formula is based on the concept of limiting certain nutrients
or
nutrient (PO4) to combat algae. While this has proven to work, it also
limits PO4 to the plants which will obviously not benefit from this. Tom
Barr's method instead is based on providing certain amounts and ratios
of
nutrients in order to not limit the plant growth in any way. Algae in
this
case is "magically" defeated by the plants themselves... I say magically
because, as I'm sure you have read the recent posts on this topic, we
are
still not sure what it is that makes the plants win over algae in this
scenario. But as you said, the main difference is the addition of PO4
and
the recommended levels of nutrients. I also feel there is some
difference in
the amount of light used in the PMDD paper compared to Tom Barr's
regime, if
I'm not mistaken PMDD was conceived and tested in tanks with less light
than
the ones Tom Barr's method is most successful in. I may be wrong
however,
it's been a while since I read the paper... I think as lighting is
increased
and therefore plant growth is sped up, limiting PO4 will cause
greater/faster effects on the plants than it would if plant growth was
slower.
If you are new to all this stuff, as I was coming from a strict history
of
low light tanks, I found it easier to not have to worry about finding
chemicals, making mixtures and figuring out concentrations and so forth
initially. I adopted the Tom Barr method, however started off using off
the
shelf products. In my case I used the Flourish line (Flourish, Iron,
Potassium, Phosphorus, Nitrogen and Tabs). I had very good results using
these products and switched to the dry chemicals for economic reasons,
nothi
ng more. I did not personally find the CSM+B trace mix to be as complete
or
effective as Flourish so to date I rely mostly of Flourish for my
traces. I
also mix some CSM+B into the trace mix, mostly because I have 5 year
supply
of it, at least... I found that by doing this I was able to concentrate
on
dosing and finding the ideal levels and ratios that worked best in my
tank,
then moved on to "cooking my own".
In the end you have the option of using a few different chemicals or
products for each element, you noted a couple yourself for PO4. I don't
think there is any differences or specific recommendations in one method
or
the other as far as which chemicals to use. It's mostly a difference of
how
to use them, frequency, suggested levels and other minor differences.
Seeing
we have the luxury of having the authors here, I'm sure they will be
able to
provide all the nitty-gritty details and any corrections to my
explanation.
Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:00:21 -0500
From: Berne Kairunas <hugh at mdaps_biz>
Subject: [APD] Happy Holidays APD
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
Just wanted to wish everyone on the list a very happy holiday season,
and
specifically a merry x-mas to those of you celebrating.
For those of you traveling - whatever the medium - to be home with your
families, please be extra careful - i want to see you all back and
posting
(or lurking heh) in the new year!
Again, best Holiday Wishes to you and yours during this wondeful season
of
the year.
See ya'll in a couple days :)
Regards
Berne Kairunas
Metro Detroit Aquatic Plant Supply - www.mdaps.biz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
Executive Board member and Webmaster of Greater Detroit Aquarium Society
www.greaterdetroitaquariumsociety.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:09:52 -0500
From: <cyn at metronet_com>
Subject: [APD] Disabled Subscriptions
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:54:39 EST
>From: Billinet at aol_com
>Subject: [APD] Re: Strange Email from Actwin.com
>To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
>The message below was in my mail box this morning when I signed on.
Has
>anyone else received ?
This is a legit email from the list management software. If your email
address
accumlates a specified number of bounced emails (email that's returned
to the APD
list), your "subscription" is suspended. It's no big deal; just go to
http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/aquatic-plants , scroll to
the bottom
of the page and enter your email address, click on "Unsubscribe or edit
options,"
this will take you to a page where you can re-activate your
subscriptions.
Happy Holidays,
Cynthia
APD ListMom
---- Msg sent via WebMail
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:22:45 -0600
From: "Candy M." <cry_little_sister at hotmail_com>
Subject: [APD] comparison of PMDD and Toms method side by side please
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
Thank you for your response,
I guess you could say I am trying to figure out where my main (55gal)
tank
fits so I can choose a way to treat it.
When I set my tank back up in mid October I did it as I always had with
sandblast for gravel (used to be texblast) only this time I wanted to
keep
softwater fish instead of a oscar, so I started looking at live plants.
I
found this forum and read tons (very very helpful thank you all.) I
spent
some time looking over plant databases to choose plants that were
suitable.
I scraped the stock hood and built my own canopy which holds 2 shop
lights
4x40watts NO and put 2 "sunshine" bulbs and 2 "aquarium and plant bulbs"
in
it and put it on a 12 hour light cycle with a timer. I got a few plants
(crypts & water sprite) at walmart (slim pickings) and had my LFS order
a
couple more (very sad looking when they came in some were not the
correct
plant). The LFS does not carry any live plants in stock. At least at
walmart
you can see the plants before you buy them when I order through the LFS
you
pay for and take what ever they get in. I had converted the "city water"
contents of my tank over to mostly RO water because of the high GH
during
this time.
I added my few plants to the tank, set up a diy CO2 system, and
purchased
the only aquarium plant supplement around here (leaf zone - which is an
Fe
supplement).
As it sits right now I have four Cryptocoryne wendtii, Ceratopteris
Thalictroides (water sprite), java fern, hornwort, and a few cuttings of
Bacopa monnieri, microsword and dwarf sag.
A list member sent me a few vals and bolbitis, a taller crypt, a
cutting of
Anubias nana, a tiny piece of x-mas moss most of which are still trying
to
recover from the "bleach treatment" (the xmas moss didn't need bleached)
After the initial acclimation period they are all doing well, the water
sprite has now become several plants and I have spread it out to fill in
the
lack of other plants, the crypts have stopped melting and are spreading
and
the rest are showing signs of growth at various rates.
I recently added a small ocelot sword, I put it in a small clay pot with
a
mixture of clay, gravel and peat and topped it off with gravel, I
figured as
it grew I would have to move it and there would be less root damage this
way. I also added 1/3 of a jobe plant spike in the pot and I did not
want to
release the jobe spike into the water column when I move it.
I am trying to figure out where my tank fits in. It will be mostly slow
growing plants, but even those will do better if properly supplemented.
I am
currently using only 3 of the bulbs (120 watts) over the 55 gal tank
since
the fourth bulb seems to traumatize the neons, Once I have more of a
"overhang" to the plants I think they will do ok with all 4 on. The
substrate is currently all gravel. At some point I want to tear this all
down and add red art clay and a slight amount of canadian peat since
laterite is cost prohibitive.
Tank occupants are 6 neons, 6 Harlequin Rasbora, 4 glowlight tetras
(Hemigrammus bellottii), 3 cory cats, 2 otos, 6 ghost shrimp and a male
betta who thinks he rules the tank.
I have 1 cory and 5 otos in the quarantine tank to add as soon as they
are
ready. I have been unable to find SAE's and my LFS can not order them. I
would like to add another 6 neons or cardinals eventually, but don't
want to
overload the tank. I have read enough to make sure I leave room for the
SAE's if I can ever find them. (the rasboras actually "school" better
than
the neons)
For economic reasons I can not go buy the Flourish line, which is why I
am
trying to use the chemicals directly rather than the logical stepping
stones
you recommend. (Yes I should have probably not started this hobby but I
keep
telling myself that once I get past the initial cost, it is not that
expensive to maintain)
The wonderful thing about planted tanks is that I wont have to fight
spider
mites which is the bane of growing things outside here. I have all this
wonderful Texas sunshine but it comes at a cost. I become like a mother
hen
over my outside plants in an effort to keep spider mites from killing
them
without using chemicals.
Planted tanks = no spider mites :)
"Could someone explain in newbie terms what is the main dif between PMDD
and
Toms formula, near as I can tell Toms supplements phosphates also where
as
the pmdd limits them. I am admittedly a confused planted tank newbie.
Sort
of a side by side compare/contrast."
Candy,
I am going to limit myself to giving you the 10000 foot view as I see
it.
The PMDD formula is based on the concept of limiting certain nutrients
or
nutrient (PO4) to combat algae. While this has proven to work, it also
limits PO4 to the plants which will obviously not benefit from this. Tom
Barr's method instead is based on providing certain amounts and ratios
of
nutrients in order to not limit the plant growth in any way. Algae in
this
case is "magically" defeated by the plants themselves... I say magically
because, as I'm sure you have read the recent posts on this topic, we
are
still not sure what it is that makes the plants win over algae in this
scenario. But as you said, the main difference is the addition of PO4
and
the recommended levels of nutrients. I also feel there is some
difference in
the amount of light used in the PMDD paper compared to Tom Barr's
regime, if
I'm not mistaken PMDD was conceived and tested in tanks with less light
than
the ones Tom Barr's method is most successful in. I may be wrong
however,
it's been a while since I read the paper... I think as lighting is
increased
and therefore plant growth is sped up, limiting PO4 will cause
greater/faster effects on the plants than it would if plant growth was
slower.
If you are new to all this stuff, as I was coming from a strict history
of
low light tanks, I found it easier to not have to worry about finding
chemicals, making mixtures and figuring out concentrations and so forth
initially. I adopted the Tom Barr method, however started off using off
the
shelf products. In my case I used the Flourish line (Flourish, Iron,
Potassium, Phosphorus, Nitrogen and Tabs). I had very good results using
these products and switched to the dry chemicals for economic reasons,
nothi
ng more. I did not personally find the CSM+B trace mix to be as complete
or
effective as Flourish so to date I rely mostly of Flourish for my
traces. I
also mix some CSM+B into the trace mix, mostly because I have 5 year
supply
of it, at least... I found that by doing this I was able to concentrate
on
dosing and finding the ideal levels and ratios that worked best in my
tank,
then moved on to "cooking my own".
In the end you have the option of using a few different chemicals or
products for each element, you noted a couple yourself for PO4. I don't
think there is any differences or specific recommendations in one method
or
the other as far as which chemicals to use. It's mostly a difference of
how
to use them, frequency, suggested levels and other minor differences.
Seeing
we have the luxury of having the authors here, I'm sure they will be
able to
provide all the nitty-gritty details and any corrections to my
explanation.
Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio
_________________________________________________________________
Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time
introductory
offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:56:02 -0800
From: "Steve Pushak" <teban at powersonic_bc.ca>
Subject: [APD] N budget
To: "Thomas Barr" <tcbiii at earthlink_net>
Cc: APD <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>, Dave Huebert <huebert at mts_net>,
Paul Krombholz <krombhol at teclink_net>
Hi Thomas,
I didn't notice a response on the APD so I'll send this to you again.
Let's suppose we have a healthy plant weighing 20 grams soaking wet. Is
that
reasonable? What might be a typical dry weight for this? 2 grams?
Of the dry weight, what percentage is typical for N? 3% by dry weight?
So we might need 0.06 grams of elemental N to make a nice sized plant.
Is
that a reasonable SWAG?
What I'm working towards is a target N budget for each plant for a 6
month
or 3 month period.
Let's give each plant 10 times the amount of N it might need for that
period
and give each plant 4 square inches of turf. My two tanks are each 1' x
2'
which gives 288 sq in. or room for lets say 72 plants or so. My
fertilizer
is 14-14-14 so at 14% N and 0.6 g N I need 4 grams of fertilizer. That's
a
pretty massive fertilizer ball. If we make the budget only 2 X the
expected
N content that would give us about 0.8 grams of fertilizer per ball per
plant per 4 square inches.
As for agar; what is the composition of this stuff? Isn't it going to
turn
to mush underwater? Won't the bacteria start rotting it? I'd be nervous
about using it until somebody else had tried it. I've used clay balls
lots &
so I'm not scared of using them. I usually use about a gram of
fertilizer
per ball & recommend up to 3-4 balls for a large plant like a Sword or
Aponogeton. 1 ball is usually enough for a Crypt & I've been telling
folks
to replace them at 6 months.
Steve
Thomas wrote:
>> How many grams of N (elemental) could a typical plant use?
> You need to pick a plant/biomass of plants/light value etc.
> Focus the question down to something much more specific.
>> Make & state whatever assumptions necessary.
Ok, late me supply some assumptions:
How much N is in an average sized Sword plant?
How many grams does an typical Sword weigh wet or dry?
Repeat question for:
Alternanthera reineckii "Dragon flame"
Bacopa caroliniana
Hygrophila polysperma "Sunset" or "Rosanervig"
Lobelia cardinalis
Hemianthus micranthemoides
Anubias barteri
Anubias barteri nana
Anubias coffeeafolia
Anubias lanceolata
Spathiphyllum wallisii
Echinodorus horemanii
Echinodorus parviflorus
Echinodorus quadricostatus "Dwarf Sword"
Aponogeton crispus "Ruffled Aponogeton"
Aponogeton madagascariensis "Madagascar Lace Plant"
Cryptocoryne blassii
Cryptocoryne bullosa
Cryptocoryne lucens or Cryptocoryne x willisii
Cryptocoryne nurii
Cryptocoryne pontederiifolia
Cryptocoryne retrospiralis syn. C balansae, C crispatula
Cryptocoryne wendtii "green"
Cryptocoryne wendtii "brown"
Bolbitus heudelotii "African Fern"
Vesicularia dubyana "Java Moss"
Microsorium pteropus "Java Fern"
Microsorium pteropus var Windelov "Java Fern"
Glossostigma elatinoides
Salvinia minima
The above is the list of plants which I have available to me in my
current
tanks. I did say you could choose the plant & size to make the question
easier to answer. If you want a size, then the size will be the size of
my
hand or a single 6" strand of stem plant.
The objective is to make a scientific wild-a** guess as to how many
grams of
NPK to incorporate into clay balls for a given planting density & at
what
point in time to add new balls. The guess need not be precise because
the
plant is going to use a portion of whatever I give it. This is the first
iteration of a practical trial. Obviously, if a plant is growing too
fast, I
will reduce its N budget; if its growing too slowly for my taste, I will
increase its budget.
I'm using the word budget because the plant has to work with what I give
it.
If its not happy, it can't borrow N from other plants, it can only go
into
deficit. Unlike the government, plants can't diddle the money supply or
synthesize N.
I'm looking for data of any kind to make guesses with.
Steve P
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:35:49 -0600
From: "Steven Pituch" <spituch at ev1_net>
Subject: [APD] Is this Bacopa carolina?
To: <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
Hi everybody,
I finally found a Bacopa-carolina-like looking plant with blue flowers.
However the blue color of the flowers is dark and there is even some red
in
the petals. The leaf structure (veins, etc) looks at least similar to
carolina, but I'm not sure. The leaves of this plant do not have a
shiny or
hard surface.
Please take a look at it at:
http://users.ev1.net/~spituch/z/z.html
and give me an opinion. Regardless, it has gone into a tank and also in
a
flower box.
Hey, Paul in Alabama! What do you think?
Regards,
Steve Pituch
http://users.ev1.net/~spituch/
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:50:28 -0600
From: "Steven Pituch" <spituch at ev1_net>
Subject: [APD] Re: Is this Bacopa carolina?
To: <Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com>
> Hey, Paul in Alabama! What do you think?
Sorry Paul K., I meant Mississippi! I knew it was one of those states
east
of Texas.
Steve Pituch
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:34:24 -0800
From: Ed Dumas <eldumas at telus_net>
Subject: [APD] Sulphates
To: Aquatic Plants Digest <Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com>
Hello again,
I didn't get much of a response from the last question I placed, so I am
going to rephrase and ask again, if you all don't mind. I probably put
too many questions into one post, so excuse me, and here goes again.
Is there a dangerous limit with Sulphates in an aqaurium, to either
plants or fish? I assume that small quantities are okay, but at what
point is it possible to do harm? Is there a test kit for sulphates? If I
know that point, I can know what level to stay well under.
Thanks so much.
Ed Dumas
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:29:35 -0800
From: Rex Grigg <rex at dsl-only_net>
Subject: Re: [APD] Sulphates
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
At 05:34 PM 12/24/2003, you wrote:
As long as you are doing regular water changes and your water source is
not
strangely high in sulfates you really don't need to worry about
it. However if you are not doing regular water changes don't worry
about
the sulfates, worry about the water changes.
>Hello again,
>
>I didn't get much of a response from the last question I placed, so I
am
>going to rephrase and ask again, if you all don't mind. I probably put
too
>many questions into one post, so excuse me, and here goes again.
>
>Is there a dangerous limit with Sulphates in an aqaurium, to either
plants
>or fish? I assume that small quantities are okay, but at what point is
it
>possible to do harm? Is there a test kit for sulphates? If I know that
>point, I can know what level to stay well under.
>
>Thanks so much.
>
>Ed Dumas
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Aquatic-Plants mailing list
>Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
>http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/aquatic-plants
In Heaven We were formed...
In Hell We were trained..
On Earth We were released...
United States Marine Corps
Semper Fi
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