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Re: CO2 System
Catalin Dobrescu wrote:
>
> I am also looking for a CO2 system. Do you know
> of anyone selling on second-hand?
> Or do you have any suggestions regarding
> a cheaper way to acquire one?
I don't think there are many second hand ones available but you might
find one by asking on the APD. You can find a wealth of information in
the Krib archives about locating the parts for CO2 systems. There is
more information in the APD archives but its tough to sort through it
all. I've CC'd Erik Olson so he can check if all of these postings below
made it into the Krib. I'd expect to see most of it there except for the
Vancouver specific stuff.
I have some information about distributors for the needle valves here in
Vancouver. Its possible and probable that you can find a cheaper type of
needle valve that has better control if you are willing to spend several
hours tracking down the information and making phone calls. You need to
understand about valve flow coefficients. If you value your own time and
are only buying one or two valves, it may not be worth the hassle since
the ARO valve works well enough for most of us. A finer control valve is
always desirable. Here is some information that I've collected:
==================
The distributor for ARO in Vancouver is Acklands.
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:12:17 -0800
From: Dave Mosley <dxm1 at calweb_com>
Subject: Re: co2 gauges
On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:41:05, Stephen Pushak wrote:
> Ok, who knows the Canadian distributor for ARO or Nupro?
your nearest nupro distributor can be found at swagelock's home page:
http://www.swagelok.com/enter5.htm (Who to Call)
i haven't found ARO on the web yet, but a phone call to:
(419) 636-4242
will get you the name of the nearest supplier.
Subject:
Nupro
Date:
Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:57:29 -0600
From:
"Grant Cockshott" <gwc at total_net>
To:
<teban at powersonic_bc.ca>
Stephen:
Your call on the CO2 was very accurate ( APD February 14.)
I'm not sure who the "master distributor" might be for Canada of Nupro,
but
our local guy Winnipeg Valve and Fitting 204-633-4446 claims to carry
them.
Regards,
Grant.
Grant Cockshott
Vice President and Sales Manager
Welders Supplies Limited
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
gwc at magic_mb.ca
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 15:23:06 -0600
From: Tom Petersen <peter334 at tc_umn.edu>
Subject: Re: CO2 valves & 24v transformers
Dave & Steve:
ARO is a division of Ingersoll-Rand. The site you want to check out for
CO2 valves is:
http://aro.ingersoll-rand.com/power/valve.htm
Phones numbers and valve info is included. If you're lucky to have a
Grainger's (multi-purpose anything you want store) they have a 3000+
page catalog that has the valves including solenoids from ARO and
others.
Subject:
Re: co2 systems
Date:
Tue, 07 Sep 1999 12:19:57 -0700
From:
Stephen Pushak <spushak at mdsi_bc.ca>
To:
flyer <flyer at island_net>
CC:
Michael Flegel <mpflegel at istar_ca>
References:
1
Jennifer,
In Vancouver you can contact Canex Cylinders at 273-0300 (ask for Kevin
or
Dave) if you want the ARO needle valve. You should ask for the
ARO/Ingersoll-Rand part 104104-NO1 which has 1/8" NPT fittings. The
price
is about $19.75 last time I ordered one. The part will be listed in the
Fluid Products catalogue under Utility Valves.
To find a closer distributor for ARO/Ingersoll Rand you can call Tony
Leo
(416)213-4502. Or contact a local Acklands and give them all the
information above. They probably won't know ARO but will know Ingersoll
Rand and you may have to steer them to the right parts catalogue.
For a top of the line needle valve with very fine adjustment you can use
the Nupro BSS4. You can get that from Columbia Valve and Fitting Ltd
(986-5251) in Vancouver for $75.80. That is a Nupro/Swagelock part. A
vernier handle is an additional $25.65. (prices subject to change)
You will also need a regulator. You might be able to find a used oxygen
or
CO2 regulator for about $40. Mike Flegel might be able to help with a
contact number. I've CC'd Mike on this message. Oxygen regulators can be
converted to CO2 use by switching one fitting from left hand to right
hand
thread. Brand new regulators cost over $120.00 but there are many
alternatives.
You will also need some 1/8" NPT hose barb adapter(s) and other
miscellaneous fittings to join the regulator and needle valves together.
You can gang several needle valves off one regulator in order to inject
multiple aquariums. A welding supply outlet such as Weldco or Acklands
can
help you out with all those dohickeys.
I like to use a powerhead to act as a CO2 reactor in the aquarium. See
pictures on my web pages. Its also a good idea to have a spare CO2
cylinder
to swap in when the old one runs out. It can take over a week to get one
refilled unless you lease one and exchange it.
You can also buy a ready made CO2 injection system however the CO2
cylinders are tiny and expensive to refill/replace. Talk to Jeannie at
Aquariums West if you are interested. There is another large retail
distributor chain which handles CO2 systems however I will not recommend
them. Over priced and uncooperative with the local aquarium clubs and
plant
growers.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:14:56 -0500
From: "Dan Dixon" <dandixon at home_com>
Subject: Re: More CO2 Injection Stuff
Peter G. Aitken wrote:
> I have been looking into the Swagelock needle valves. The "S series metering
> valves" is indeed the lowest flow rate valve style they make. The maximum Cv
> is 0.004 (valve fully open) but according to the flow data graph I have you
> can get a Cv as low as 0.00025 with the valve open 2 of its 10 turns. I
> think this will be fine for a low pressure system - if not someone please
> enlighten me before I order one!
Peter, I don't know how useful the Cv numbers are with gasses, but most
people who have used the Nupro S valve say it's very nice. My recent
attempts to find this valve locally were not successful, but in the
process
I stumbled upon a Parker HR series valve for slightly more (about $52)
than
the Nupro S valve. I bought it and am so far very pleased with it.
The HR stands for "High Resolution" and the series comes in seven
different
valve stem tapers (HR-0 through 6) that offer various flow coefficients.
The
one I got was the HR-1, although from the spec sheets the HR-0, 2, 3,
and 4
models appear to be at least as precise as the Nupro S valve. Here are
the
Cv figures for the Parker HR-0 through 4 valves:
HR-0: .00034
HR-1: .00080
HR-2: .00140
HR-3: .00310
HR-4: .00770
Here are some of the manufacturers' specs for the Nupro S and Parker
HR-1
valves.
Nupro S Series Parker HR-1
Max pressure: 2000 psig 250 psig
Max flow coefficient (Cv): .004 .0008
Turns to open: 10 (+/-2) 15 (+/-1)
Shutoff: not intended bubble-tight
Cv at turns open (approximate*):
1 turn .00010 .00005
2 .00025 .00007
3 .00050 .00008
4 .00080 .00010
6 .00180 .00015
8 .00280 .00025
10 .00400 .00035
12 --- .00050
15 --- .00080
(* I derived these numbers from somewhat lo-rez graphs, so they could be
off
significantly)
To make sense of these numbers, I had to learn what "Cv" meant. The flow
Cv
(Coefficient of volume) is defined as the number of gallons per minute
of
room temperature water that will flow through the valve with a pressure
drop
of 1 psi across the valve. However, since we are metering CO2 and not
water,
all sorts of variables factor into the equation because gases are
compressible and the flow rates are affected by temperature and
pressure.
The math to calculate flow rates for CO2 through these valves is
available,
but it's beyond my time/interests/brainpower/etc. Here it is for those
so
inclined:
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/~dbruce/valve6.htm
In a nutshell, the Cv numbers are relative, I think.
Since most folks who use the Nupro are apparently quite satisfied with
its
control resolution, the Parker HR-1 is possibly a bit more resolution
than
is needed. For people who find that they only use the lower range of the
Nupro (1 turn or less), the extra resolution of the HR valves might be
desirable.
Another nice feature is the shut-off capability. Unlike the Nupro S
valves,
the Parker HR valves are *designed* to be shut off. Factor in the cost
of a
ball valve and the extra expense is a bit easier to swallow.
The only downside was that the Parker came with 1/8" connectors because
that's all the dealer had. Adapting this my Cornelius regulator (aka
"beer
keg guage") was problematic; 1/4" connectors would have been a lot less
hassle to hook up.
As soon as I've had more time to play with the Parker HR-1 I will post
my
experiences, but so far it appears to be a very nice valve. Right now
I'm
running about 20 psi into it and I open it up about 3 turns to achieve 1
bubble/sec.
BTW, I think I saw 3 or 4 more on the shelf of this dealer, so if anyone
else is interested, email me off list and I'll send dealer info. The
person
who helped me said they've been collecting dust for 4 or 5 years, so
they
just want to move them out. I think Parker redesigned the valve, because
their current picture on the web site differs slightly from the valve I
bought.
I also learned that it doesn't hurt to poke around locally first before
buying mail order. I was about to order the Nupro from an out-of-town
dealer
when I stumbled onto the Parker deal. There may be other high resolution
metering valves out there made by other manufacturers besides Swagelok
and
Parker. If you happen upon a dealer of other brands of metering valves,
ask
the dealer to cross-reference thiers to a Nupro S and see what they come
up
with. You never know what you may discover.
Good luck!
Dan Dixon
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:59:57 -0500
From: "Ken Guin" <kenguin at homemail_com>
Subject: CO2 and Needle Valves
Several list members have recently asked about CO2 Bottles and Needle
Valves, so I thought I would regurgitate some information I have put on
the
APD in the past. I bought my setups about a year ago and have been very
happy with them.
I ordered the B-SS4 Nupro Needle Valve ("S" Series) from Dibert Valve
and
Fitting Company, Inc, P.O. Box 37280, Richmond, VA 23234-7280.
(540)366-0555. If you call them, ask for Joann and mention my name. She
will
be able to check my invoice and tell you what else you need. The cost
for
the needle valve was $55.00
Dibert Valve is the local distributor for Swagelok valves. The B-SS4
model
accommodates regular air tubing. If you are using something other than
regular air tubing (1/4"OD, 3/16" ID), you will have to get different
sized
inserts than what I got. I ordered the B-405-3 inserts which fit air
tubing
like a glove. The inserts are about 50 cents apiece. I have been using
them
with the Nupra Valve for a year now and I have had no problems.
You can get a twin gauge regulator and a used (but certified) tank from
Rapids, 101 Second Avenue, SW, PO Box 396, Cedar Rapids, IA 52406
800-472-7431 http://www.4rapid1.com . I got the used ten pound cylinder
(G110) for $65 and a regulator (Norgren - RP957) for $52.50 from Rapids.
Costs:
$55.00 Valve
$65.00 Tank
$52.50 Regulator
172.50 Total
I hope this is helpful.
Ken Guin
Arlington, VA
==================
--
Steve Pushak Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Visit "Steve's Aquatic Page" http://home.infinet.net/teban/
for LOTS of pics, tips and links for aquatic gardening!!!