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Re: [APD] new here, and coppersafe

Sorry to hear aobut the problem with your tetras.

Malachite green is an aniline dye and relatively harmless
to plants and most fish. Usually, dosing at half the
recommendd dose is adequate.

Some of the "green" or blue-green colored ich treatments
also have formalin in them. This is a much harsher chemical
to treat with but usually more effective with ich, again at
half dosage.

Do a 50% water change, dose with malachite or Quick Cure
for two days and then do a another 50% water change. If you
want, you can then add charcoal (activated carbon).  to the
cansiter or power filter (if you are using one) for a day
or two but then remove the charcoal. Don't use charcoal in
your filter at any other time. Charcoal with remove from
the water things the plants need and should not be
necessary on a well palnted aquarium. Instead of using
charcoal to remove what lingers of the ich treatment, you
can do a 50% water change every few days for a week.

Copper treatments are the last thing that I would want to
put into a fish tank and I wouldn't use them in a planted
tank. Btw, some people think malachite green has copper in
it because there is a mineral by the same name that
contains compper. But the malachite green dye has no copper
in it.

Other methods of dealing with ich include raising the water
temp up to about 83 degrees, which is a little stressfull
for the fish but by itself not likely to be especially
harmfull for most fish. At the higher temperature, the ich
sometime dies off. Also at higher temps the life cycle of
the ich critter is sped up so that other chemical
treatments can act faster to kill off the ich.

Running a diatom filter can be effective because a diatom
filter actually removes ich from the ater that passes
through it. But diatom filters are expensive.

The best method for dealing with ich is to ensure very good
water quality and healthy fish. Under good conditions,
storng fish seem able to fight off ich on their own. This
is one reason that so many things seem to cure ich -- bu
that's good news -- ich because it means ich is one of the
easier although more common fish alilments to survive.

Mixing several diff treatments together can be stressful to
the fish so that they are not strong enough to fight off
the ich or survive, so pick a treatment and stick with

Ich can take a week to cure depending on water temps,
severity of infection and effectiveness of treatment.

The life cycle of ich involves 3 stages. In one stage, a
form of the ich critter lives down on the substrate. then
it changes to a waterborne "free-swimming" form in the
water column, which is when it finds and attacks fish and
also when it is susceptible to chemical treatments. Third,
it changes to a form that lives in the fish (usally atack
ign the gills first where you can see no sign of the
infection and causing the sores under the skin that show up
as whites spots. That in-the-fish form also is not
susceptible to the chemical treatments and will shed ich in
to the water1 that falls to the substrate and then turns to
the waterborne stage and so on the life cycle continues.
But since each of the three stages of the life cycle only
lasts for about 2 days or so, depending on the temperature,
if the waterborne stage is killed off and the water is
inhospitabile to the ich for several days, then infection
will subside within a few days. Some of the ich will be at
each of the three stages at any given time, so any
treatment will takes several days to cure. This is hy
raising the water temp can sometimes help, because it
increase the speed at which the life cycle occurs and
therefore how quickly the ich cycles to the stage when it
is susceptible to chemical treatment. Also high tmeps alone
can kill off most ich, but a minimum of 85 degrees or more
is necessary to do that and the higher temp reduces the
amount of oxygen inthe water while speeding up the fishes
mtebolism -- in other words, the higher temps can be
stressful enough to weaken some fish that are already weak
and infected with ich.

Diff aquarists have diff methods for just about everything
andI have been genralizing because I don't know the
particulars of your set up. 

Also, be sure to use a high quality water conditioner that
not only breaks up chlorine compounds and chloramie
compounds in the water but that also binds the chlorine and
ammonia that is in those compounds. I like to use SeaChem
Prime because it does just that. Some cheaper water
conditioners that say they break up the chloramine
compound, release the ammonia in to the water, which can be
very stressful for fish. If the water is properly
conditoned, large water changes wil not be stressfull to
the fish and help to remove some of the ich that is in the
waterborne stage. 

One last point, try to keep about a dozen cardinal tetras
together in one tank. A half dozen is too small for them to
feel comfortable. With at least ten or twelve, you should
notice the fish behaving less timid, and being more active
-- well, active for cardinal tetras anyway.

Good luck, 
Scott H.
--- "Anna R. Dunster" <azzacanth at livejournal_com> wrote:

> hi all,
> I'm new to this list, although I've found your archives
> many times on
> google searches (and today I realized, well instead of
> reading the
> archives hoping someone answered my question, why don't I
> just join?)
> Today I discovered ich in my 25 gal planted aquarium, on
> all four of
> my new cardinal tetras. (I bought 6 but unfortunately 2
> died from
> stress)   My only other tank is a ten gallon set up with
> danios and a
> large apple snail so I am stuck treating in my planted
> tank. 
> My question is does anyone have experience with
> coppersafe and plants?
> I read one post where a java fern never recovered after
> being treated
> with coppersafe and since I need to move mine anyway I
> might take it
> out while I am treating.   
> My dad is on the way now to get some coppersafe while
> running other
> errands since it's the only non-staining, tetra-safe
> product I've been
> able to find. We live 60 miles from the nearest pet store
> so today is
> my only chance in the next week to get anything.  (I have
> a bottle
> here already of a malachite green product but from what I
> understand
> that's about the harshest treatment there is for fish and
> plants
> both).  However if someone has any other suggestions in
> time (though
> knowing how lists work its unlikely ;) I can always call
> him and have
> him get a different product.
> Also I put some salt and melafix (to prevent secondary
> infection) in
> today also. 
> Anyway thanks for any experience you all can share :)
> ~Anna Dunster
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