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Re: Plant health
> Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 13:42:16 -0700
> From: Thomas Barr <tcbiii at earthlink_net>
> Subject: Re: Plant health
>
> > Tom wrote:
> >
> >> Good plant health will help the most to control algae.
> >
> > I have seen you write this line many many times and it just dawned on me
> > what you may have meant.
>
> Well think about this:
> New tank. Plant have not established themselves yet. High potential for
> algae. Another tank. Low to absent NO3's for a few weeks. Poor plant
growth
> and algae creeps in. Another tank with CO2 problems(too much and/or too
> little). Again algae problems with semi okay plant growth.
> Another tank with some good growth for awhile then poor growth(uneven
> nutrient amounts).
>
> Much of all this revolves around the plants, not the algae. Most FW algae
> are secondary opportunist waiting for a bloom.
> >
> > Are you saying do not try and fix the algae problem, but try and fix the
> > deficiency for the plants and the algae will go away again?
>
> Well generally yes, BUT you should attack the algae also! Manual/physical
> removal, with water changes, herbivores, good nutrient levels etc. Do all
of
> these, not just one silver bullet. It's not that difficult once you get
the
> hang of it. Go in once a week and prune, do your basic water change, Check
> the CO2, clean clogged filters and add a fresh batch of nutrients(this
> regular addition of nutrient will keep a deficiency problem to a
minimum!).
> Got a problem? Go back and repeat this procedure. Check the CO2 again etc.
> This is the best method to handle all the algae issues generally. Green
> water and a few others need some extra work but almost never come back if
> you keep up on things. But will all algae problems go away by nutrients
> alone? Doubtful. In a healthy tank where they have not gotten a foot hold
> algae do stay away if the nutrients are well managed but these also have
> herbivores, regular maintenance etc. Can't get out that part:)
>
> >
> > How many thousands of different dificiencys are there out there?
>
> Well there's only a few nutrients plant's need. But there's many
> combinations and degrees of each.
> >When you
> > find algae in your tank how long does it usually take you to find the
> > dificiency....hours, days, or weeks?
>
> Depends. Typically the deficiency has been going on for awhile if you get
> algae. I test and keep up on things regularly. Algae on the glass is the
> only algae I have dealt with for quite sometime. Remember that I use
> herbivores and other methods to control algae as well, not just nutrient
> management.
>
> It takes some time for the plants to regain their health after being
> starved. Your not going to be doing to well if you have a broken leg then
> the next day go out and try to run. Plants take sometime to get going
again.
> Give them time and be patient. They will come back and as they do they use
> progressively more nutrients. Keeping up and realizing this "momentum"
helps
> as the plants get going and growing again.
> If you have a tank that;'s doing well and has fast growth it can handle
iron
> levels of 1.5ppm, PO4's of 1.0ppm and NO3's of 10ppm etc.
> If you have a tank that's got poor CO2, poor plant health etc your going
to
> get algae even though the levels are the same. If you cut these levels in
> half and keep attacking the algae and doing water changes etc eventually
the
> plants will regain the upper hand and be dominant if you fix the CO2.
>
> It's a balance of these things and your tank can change as it starts
growing
> and becoming healthier but many folks do not keep up on this and don't
> enough nutrients(namely macro's but traces also) so this stunts/slows
their
> plants somewhat, which is not bad in some cases and they might not get
much
> algae etc. There are varying degrees here as well. If you don't have any
NO3
> where you had plenty prior to your plants taking off and you do not
correct
> this you will have more problems than someone who does add KNO3 with every
> weekly water change. Having fish and feeding them solves some of this N
and
> P issue.
> Depends on your frequency of additions/maintenance restocking the tank
with
> fresh supply of all the nutrients. If you did this often you'll have less
> problems than some one who does not. Once the tank is up and running well
> then you can back off for a more manageable truce with the algae. If you
> really keep up on things for 3-4 weeks your tank will look very nice.
> This is an excellent technique for those folks doing open houses/photo ops
> and doing a big water change right before(that morning) before the folks
> come over is a good idea.
>
> > Is there a specific group of test that
> > you start with (ie. 2 or 3 first set of test then if that doesn't show
> > anything go to 2 or 3 second set of test?).
>
> Certainly. CO2 is the first. NO3 2nd, PO4 3rd, Fe 4th.
> But you should always remember the other items:
> Adding K+ to excess by estimation, pruned plants and trim off any poor
> looking leaves, clean filters, good water circulation, water changes etc.
> If the N and P are not being used suspect CO2. Clean tank well prune off
any
> algae-> Water change-> add fresh nutrient back in-> correct CO2-> repeat
for
> 3 weeks. Should take care of most all the algae/plant health problems if
> your cleaning the tank and doing regular maintenance.
>
> > Dave Berryman
>
> Regards,
> Tom Barr
> > How many thousands of different dificiencys are there out there? When
you
> > find algae in your tank how long does it usually take you to find the
> > dificiency....hours, days, or weeks? Is there a specific group of test
that
> > you start with (ie. 2 or 3 first set of test then if that doesn't show
> > anything go to 2 or 3 second set of test?).
> Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:24:10 -0600
> From: "Roger S. Miller" <rgrmill at rt66_com>
> Subject: Re: good plant growth was Re: PO4
> David Berryman wrote:
>
> > Are you saying do not try and fix the algae problem, but try and fix the
> > deficiency for the plants and the algae will go away again?
>
> Bingo!
>
> > How many thousands of different dificiencys are there out there?
>
> Start with light. The rule of thumb is that you need 2-3 watts per
> gallon of normal fluorescent light. Small tanks often need more. Large
> tanks need less. Be careful that your plants don't shade each other too
> much. I have a developing theory that some nutrient deficiencies may be
> related to low light; they occur because the plant doesn't have enough
> energy (light) to actively import the necessary nutrients.
>
> As far as nutrients are concerned there aren't that many deficiencies to
> worry about, especially if you use tap water and do regular water
> changes. Very pure tap water (as in the US northwest) may cause some
> problems. If you use RO, DI or distilled water then you *will* have
> problems because you will have to supply correct amounts of everything
> (except maybe hydrogen and oxygen).
>
> Here's one list of essential elements, and some comments on their
> supply, including their availability in common tap water.
>
> Element Source Comments
> - ------- ------ --------
> Hydrogen water Universally present
>
> Carbon Carbon dioxide, Always present, but needed
> bicarbonate ion in water in large amounts, so can
> be
> deficient
>
> Oxygen water Universally present
>
> Nitrogen Nitrate ion, low levels usually present
> ammonium ion in water high levels reached in
> some
> urea, ammonia and nitrate aquariums. Can be
> deficient.
> salts
>
> Potassium K+ ion in water always present, but can be
> potassium salts deficient
>
> Calcium Calcium ion dissolved in water always present in hard
> water
> calcium salts
>
> Magnesium Magnesium ion dissolved in water always present in hard
> water
> magnesium salts
>
> Phosphorus Phosphate ion, can be deficient, tends to
> organic phosphorus in water disappear over time.
> phosphate salts especially in hard water.
>
> Sulfur Sulfate ion dissolved in water always present
>
> Chlorine Chloride ion dissolved in water always present
>
> Boron Borate dissolved in water sometimes deficient,
> needed
> borax, boric acid in small amounts. Can be
> toxic
>
> Iron Ferrous or ferric ion in water, common element, but often
> iron oxyhydoxides in soils deficient in
> aquariums
> "laterite", chelated iron
>
> Manganese Mangese ion and manganate
> dissolved in water. Also in
> soils, trace mix, may be
> chelated
>
> Zinc Zinc ion dissolved in water
> also in soils, chelated trace
> mix.
>
> Copper Copper ion dissolved in water
> also in soils chelated trace
> mix
>
> Molybdenum Molybdate ion dissolved in water
> also in soils, trace mix
>
> Of the elements on the list we pretty much never need to worry about
> hydrogen, oxygen, sulfur or chlorine. Even slightly hard water provides
> all of the calcium or magnesium your plants need. Tap water supplies
> usually carry enough boron.
>
> Potassium is common in tap water, but adding more often produces
> increased growth.
>
> Fish feeding and fish waste provide nitrogen and phosphorus, but in a
> heavily planted tank the plant demands may exceed that supply, so
> deficiencies happen. Both can be added as fertilizer.
>
> Carbon as bicarbonate is usually present in tap water, but not all
> aquarium plants use that source. Even those plants that do use
> bicarbonate may need very bright light to use it effectively; algae seem
> to be better at it. CO2 is the preferred source, and that can be
> provided by respiration in the tank or it can be added to the tank. The
> carbon supply probably limits plant growth in many aquariums. That
> isn't necessarily a Bad Thing, depending on the balance of other factors
> in the tank.
>
> Iron, manganese, zinc, copper and molybdenum can collectively be called
> the trace metals. Iron is the one needed in the largest amounts, but
> manganese isn't far behind. Some water supplies carry enough of the
> trace metals that water changes alone provide a sufficient supply. All
> of the trace metals can probably be provided in adequate amounts by
> using a soil substrate. If problems arise -- particularly with iron
> deficiency -- then its fairly common to add these metals with a chelated
> trace mix.
>
> Nutrient deficiencies generally have specific symptoms and can be
> diagnosed with careful observation. Unfortunately when deficiencies
> occur the plants are often deficient in more than one nutrient.
> Further, some of nutrient deficiency symptoms are very similar. To
> diagnose a nutrient deficiency you need to study your plants and
> *carefully* compare them to the published descriptions of the symptoms.
> Be particularly careful about whether symptoms occur on old leaves or
> new leaves and where on the leaves the problems occur.
>
> > When you
> > find algae in your tank how long does it usually take you to find the
> > dificiency....hours, days, or weeks?
>
> Sometimes minutes. Sometimes months. The time it takes might depend on
> how stubborn you want to be about changing your mind.
>
> > Is there a specific group of test that
> > you start with (ie. 2 or 3 first set of test then if that doesn't show
> > anything go to 2 or 3 second set of test?).
>
> A water analysis provided by your water system is the best source of
> information. Bluntly, the only hobby tests that I have much trust in
> are the simple pH indicators, hardness kits, and alkalinity titrations.
> Expensive kits (e.g. Hach and LaMotte) work better and you can probably
> ignore any result you think you got from a test "strip". It is better
> to depend on your own observations, knowledge and experience then it is
> to depend on a bad test.
>
>
> Roger Miller