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RE:Living water vital

>I don't think that anyone is saying that Mr. Weiss is fake. There are lots
>of questions about the claims made for his products and until he or someone
>else gives a scientifically reasonable explanation for HOW the various
>"Vital" products do what it is they are purported to do, those questions
>will remain unanswered, and people will refer to the products as "snake

I have to agree with James here.
I have used the product off and on over several **years** and in several
tanks and methods of additions. You do not need it! This I totally assure
everyone on this list! Try messing with getting the PH/KH/CO2 relationship
well understood instead of spending money on snake oil.

>We aren't trying to maintain corals in our planted tanks.

I like his saltwater products BTW and this is why I bought his FW products,
but...........many salt successes do not apply to FW plant success as many
"reef" keepers seem to assume/think. Many salt folks think we are equivalent
to FW reefs and this is not true. Reefs are animals and algae primarily, not
plants so much. There are many issues of differences between FW and SW
besides this also.
>It is possible that Mr. Weiss has stumbled upon other, previously unknown
>factors which the rest of the hobby and industry was unaware of, and has
>been able to put these factors into a bottle but I would like to see a more
>"reasoned" explanation other than "customer testamonials" - they mean
>absolutely diddly squat in the absence of hard facts.

I have a negative testamonial or actually "it just didn't do anything and I
want my money back" so is it now a bad product? It might do something if
your tank is all messed up in some specific area but you can correct this
often with getting your CO2/nutrients up to snuff etc. You just don't need
snake oils to keep a great plant tank IMO. 
3 things.. light, CO2, nutrients and balance of these factors. This is what
you **need**.
>What exactly is in the products, what is the mechanism by which they work,
>and show us scientifically sound test results supporting the claims.
>Until Marc Weiss and anyone else selling magic elixirs steps forward with
>the facts, people will remain sceptical. Just because you are able to sell
>the products to the public doesn't say anything about the worth of the
>products - it only indicates that the marketing works. That sort of defense
>might work in the usenet newsgroups, but it isn't likely to fly here.
>But I stress my statement that we aren't coming down on Marc Weiss - it is
>the claims for the Marc Weiss lablelled products that are the issue.
>James Purchase

His saltwater stuff works and the FW stuff didn't do nothing. I tried both
with a degree of patience over time.
Tom Barr