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Re: Hybrid sunnies

Ed,
  Personally, I believe if there really was a Mother Nature or God
creating species as he/she/it 	 went along, I'd think that he/she/it
would delite in making exceptions to all our neat little rules, just to
piss off mankind overall. :)  
   The best breaks to the Bioloigcal Species Concept truly come in the
fishes.  Think of Rivulus marmoratus: A "hermaphrodite" fish.  Or again,
to invoke the livebearers, the Amazon Molly... which will only breed with
males of another speies, and has no males in its own!  A truly bizzare
species, indeed.  



end
><>
J. L. Wiegert
www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2308  
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On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Richard E Matheson wrote:

> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:52:17 -0400
> From: Richard E Matheson <MOJOMAN at prodigy_net>
> Reply-To: nfc at actwin_com
> To: nfc at actwin_com
> Subject: Re: Hybrid sunnies
> 
> Josh,
> 
>     Always remember that it is our biological species concept. There is no
> reason why the natural world has to obey our concept. My favorite exceptions
> among fishes are the swordtails and platys. Many of the "species" can
> interbreed, and they produce perfectly viable offspring. Nevertheless, as I
> understand it, they behave like respectable species in the wild. Some
> taxonomists would say that the ability to interbreed is a primitive
> character and does not indicate a particularly close relationship (I
> personally have a bit of trouble with this concept). This is one of the
> reasons why Ed Wiley and others have the promoted the evolutionary species
> concept. This concept adds the idea of pursuing a distinct evolutionary fate
> and downplays the idea of interbreeding. This simply means that a lineage
> that is an "evolutionary species" is primarily evolving on its own without
> significant genetic pollution (if you will) from other evolutionary species.
> Don't even get me started with plants; they have absolutely no respect for
> our species concept.
> This could be a good topic for a discussion, but I don't believe the best
> minds in evolutionary biology have reached a consensus at this point.That's
> what keeps the subject interesting.
> 
> Ed
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh Wiegert <jwiegert at nexus_v-wave.com>
> To: nfc at actwin_com <nfc at actwin_com>
> Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 11:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Hybrid sunnies
> 
> 
> >Ed,
> >  The bioloigcal species concept states that if an individual can reprodue
> >with another individual (and, obviosuly, they're opposite sexes) and
> >produce VIABLE offpsring, then they are teh saem species.  Viable
> >indicates that not only must these fry not be three headed, kinked spined
> >mutants that'll die in an hour (i.e., blood red parrot cichlids.. YUCH) in
> >the natural world, but they must be able to reproduce and produce
> >offspring that'll survive.  With a lot of lower organisms, this concept
> >really messes with out species ideas.  Fish, a "higher" organism, time and
> >time again like to screw with this.  I'm uncertain if these sunfish can
> >interbreed and continue to produce viable offspring.  It would truly come
> >to no surprise to me if they could.  Biologists can't even figure out what
> >it means to be alive (definitiaion 1 includes fire and crystals.
> >definition 2 includes cars.  Definition 3 says a mule is not alive.
> >Definition 4 says ... ), let alone what ti really means to be of the same
> >species. :)
> >
> >end
> >><>
> >J. L. Wiegert
> >www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2308
> >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> > Dubotchugh yIpummoH.                      bI'IQchugh Yivang!
> >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> >Native Fish Conservatory Mailing List (NFC at actwin_com) Administrator.
> >The list is also available in digest form (NFC-Digest at actwin_com).
> >To subscribe to this list, send mail to Majordomo at actwin_com with the
> >command "subscribe nfc" or "subscribe NFC-Digest" in the body.  To
> >unsubscribe, send mail to Majordomo at actwin_com with the command
> >"unsubscribe nfc" or "unsubscribe nfc-digest" in the body.  Feel free to
> >ask for help!
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> >
> >On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Richard E Matheson wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: R W Wolff <raywolff at juno_com>
> >> To: nfc at actwin_com <nfc at actwin_com>
> >> Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 1:20 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Hybrid sunnies
> >>
> >>
> >> >Longears, or any lepomis for that matter, will hybridize....
> >>
> >> Damned disrespectful of our species concept aren't they? I don't think we
> >> should let them get away with it! Perhaps education is the key; if they
> knew
> >> hybridization was wrong, perhaps they would do the right thing.
> >>
> >> Actually, the scientific literature contains many examples of
> hybridization
> >> in fishes. In a some (many?) cases this seems to happen in somewhat
> >> disturbed situations such as when a damn separates some individuals from
> the
> >> normal spawning grounds of their species and/or forces them into
> unusually
> >> close quarters with a related species (I think some famous person said
> "If
> >> you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with). In sunnies
> >> and some minnows it seems to be a relatively normal byproduct of their
> >> spawning behavior, but, as Ray Wolff said, the hybrids don't seem to
> persist
> >> for many generations. Although I have not rechecked the literature on
> this
> >> point, I would suspect that many of them are either sterile or have
> greatly
> >> reduced fertility.
> >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> >
> 
>
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