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Re: Hybrid sunnies
Personally, I believe if there really was a Mother Nature or God
creating species as he/she/it went along, I'd think that he/she/it
would delite in making exceptions to all our neat little rules, just to
piss off mankind overall. :)
The best breaks to the Bioloigcal Species Concept truly come in the
fishes. Think of Rivulus marmoratus: A "hermaphrodite" fish. Or again,
to invoke the livebearers, the Amazon Molly... which will only breed with
males of another speies, and has no males in its own! A truly bizzare
J. L. Wiegert
Dubotchugh yIpummoH. bI'IQchugh Yivang!
Native Fish Conservatory Mailing List (NFC at actwin_com) Administrator.
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On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Richard E Matheson wrote:
> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:52:17 -0400
> From: Richard E Matheson <MOJOMAN at prodigy_net>
> Reply-To: nfc at actwin_com
> To: nfc at actwin_com
> Subject: Re: Hybrid sunnies
> Always remember that it is our biological species concept. There is no
> reason why the natural world has to obey our concept. My favorite exceptions
> among fishes are the swordtails and platys. Many of the "species" can
> interbreed, and they produce perfectly viable offspring. Nevertheless, as I
> understand it, they behave like respectable species in the wild. Some
> taxonomists would say that the ability to interbreed is a primitive
> character and does not indicate a particularly close relationship (I
> personally have a bit of trouble with this concept). This is one of the
> reasons why Ed Wiley and others have the promoted the evolutionary species
> concept. This concept adds the idea of pursuing a distinct evolutionary fate
> and downplays the idea of interbreeding. This simply means that a lineage
> that is an "evolutionary species" is primarily evolving on its own without
> significant genetic pollution (if you will) from other evolutionary species.
> Don't even get me started with plants; they have absolutely no respect for
> our species concept.
> This could be a good topic for a discussion, but I don't believe the best
> minds in evolutionary biology have reached a consensus at this point.That's
> what keeps the subject interesting.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh Wiegert <jwiegert at nexus_v-wave.com>
> To: nfc at actwin_com <nfc at actwin_com>
> Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 11:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Hybrid sunnies
> > The bioloigcal species concept states that if an individual can reprodue
> >with another individual (and, obviosuly, they're opposite sexes) and
> >produce VIABLE offpsring, then they are teh saem species. Viable
> >indicates that not only must these fry not be three headed, kinked spined
> >mutants that'll die in an hour (i.e., blood red parrot cichlids.. YUCH) in
> >the natural world, but they must be able to reproduce and produce
> >offspring that'll survive. With a lot of lower organisms, this concept
> >really messes with out species ideas. Fish, a "higher" organism, time and
> >time again like to screw with this. I'm uncertain if these sunfish can
> >interbreed and continue to produce viable offspring. It would truly come
> >to no surprise to me if they could. Biologists can't even figure out what
> >it means to be alive (definitiaion 1 includes fire and crystals.
> >definition 2 includes cars. Definition 3 says a mule is not alive.
> >Definition 4 says ... ), let alone what ti really means to be of the same
> >species. :)
> >J. L. Wiegert
> > Dubotchugh yIpummoH. bI'IQchugh Yivang!
> >Native Fish Conservatory Mailing List (NFC at actwin_com) Administrator.
> >The list is also available in digest form (NFC-Digest at actwin_com).
> >To subscribe to this list, send mail to Majordomo at actwin_com with the
> >command "subscribe nfc" or "subscribe NFC-Digest" in the body. To
> >unsubscribe, send mail to Majordomo at actwin_com with the command
> >"unsubscribe nfc" or "unsubscribe nfc-digest" in the body. Feel free to
> >ask for help!
> >On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Richard E Matheson wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: R W Wolff <raywolff at juno_com>
> >> To: nfc at actwin_com <nfc at actwin_com>
> >> Date: Saturday, October 03, 1998 1:20 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Hybrid sunnies
> >> >Longears, or any lepomis for that matter, will hybridize....
> >> Damned disrespectful of our species concept aren't they? I don't think we
> >> should let them get away with it! Perhaps education is the key; if they
> >> hybridization was wrong, perhaps they would do the right thing.
> >> Actually, the scientific literature contains many examples of
> >> in fishes. In a some (many?) cases this seems to happen in somewhat
> >> disturbed situations such as when a damn separates some individuals from
> >> normal spawning grounds of their species and/or forces them into
> >> close quarters with a related species (I think some famous person said
> >> you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with). In sunnies
> >> and some minnows it seems to be a relatively normal byproduct of their
> >> spawning behavior, but, as Ray Wolff said, the hybrids don't seem to
> >> for many generations. Although I have not rechecked the literature on
> >> point, I would suspect that many of them are either sterile or have
> >> reduced fertility.
> >> Ed