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RE Snails, algae... yay Ed!

Hello,

Here are some of my $0.02 input on this topic.  It is not intended to
flame, harass, upset, invoke, incite, etc..

>> > However when I responded the way that I did I was under the
assumption
>> > that there would be less hazardous alternative methods.
>>
>> Hazardous in what way? Using the bleach treatment might be hazardous
to
>> your clothing if you spill bleach on them. If you read the
instructions,
>> you won't be killing plants although in my experience, not all plants

>> can be bleached and survive so for some delicate plants, you need to
>> find an alternative method or don't use those plants. By alternative,
I
>> mean growing the plant emersed or obtaining a clean culture from
>> somebody. When I get set up in the new house, I'll be able to set up
>> several emerse condition tanks for Crypts and fine leafed plants.
They
>> have to be grown in very humid conditions (i.e. with glass covers).
>>

Hmm, well for a newbies standpoint the bleach treatment could be rather
harmfull and fatal to the plants, as they often don't know how much
bleach to add and how long to leave it soaking.  Something that does
come to mind is why not write a bleach-FAQ and post it on thekrib.com
and other locations?

> >  Just so
>> > everyone knows we may be dealing with Cladophora :)  and from what
I
>> > have been reading hair algae *CAN* and *IS* cultured by a wide
variety
>> > of animal (the types i'm not sure about yet, still looking for that

>> > info)
>>
>> I think you mean cured not cultured. I'm not just reading about hair

NOPE!! I mean cultured as in harbor, promote conditions in favor of,
grow, harvest, use for a defense against preditors, and the like :)  Yes
there are many animals (ephipytes and something else can't rem) that
cultures.

>> algae, I've worked (first hand) with a number of individuals who have
it
>> in their aquariums. In some cases, especially with BBA, certainly you

>> can curtail an infestation but you can NEVER eliminate the algae
totally
>> from the aquarium by using SAEs or other algae eating fish. So if you

>> say controlled, I would agree but not cured nor prevented.
>>

Well I do NOT want to eleminate it 100%  You may be asking WHY? the
answer is simple. it's called a balanced ecosystem :) I feel that if
there is a natural source of food for the sae's then that's less work
that needs be done from an outside source (i.e. me feeding)  However you
are correct in stating that use of algae eaters are treating the syptoms
and not the cause.  What I did was discovered that my substrate is very
rich in organics and the cleaning method that I was using was not very
effective.  My solution was to uproot all the plants (cept the crypts)
do a 60% water change, drop a diotamagic filter on, stirred up the
gravel all over repetively (clogged up the filter 4 times) and put
deionized water back in, then replanted the plants. This is treating the
cause.  I did put sae's in because I want a natural looking aquarium and
to take some work off of me (as most humans do poorly at aquatic
housecleaning, nothing beats a fish).

>> > As for preventing algae the old saying an ounce of prevention is
worth a
>> > pound of cure.  However there is no 100% sure method of keeping
algae
>> > out of a tank, well unless you sterilize everything, put in plastic

>> > fish, plastic grave, plastic plants and seal it in a sterile
enviroment
>> > :)  As for a real world enviroment I feel that it's alot easier to
>> > understand WHY there's an outbreak and treat the cause NOT the
symptom.
>>
>> There IS a 100% sure method of keeping filament algae out of a tank.
>> That is to use the bleach treatment method to sterilize aquatic
plants

One question, do you bleach your arms, hand, tools and keep the tanks
from splashing water on each other? :)  From my studies this could in
theory (read in THEORY) transfer any form of algae, bacteria, fungus,
etc...

>> and to quarantine fish before adding them to the tank. You don't need
to
>> sterilize everything, just those things which could have had algae
grown
>> on them. For non living things, that's pretty easy. Just because
certain
>> people keep repeating this particular chant over and over (you CAN'T
>> keep algae out of an aquarium) it doesn't make it true. You CAN keep
>> filament algae out of an aquarium. Big distinction. Unfortunately at
>> times it means you can't use certain plants which cannot survive
bleach
>> unless you have access to clean samples (and still prevent algae from

>> infecting the tank by prophylaxis).
>>
Hmm, a simple test to support your theory would be to take a water samle
and get it analyzed under a microscope.  Then we'll see what is really
in there :)  I am willing to bet there will be some type of filament
algae in there somewhere :)

Even this is not a 100% effective method.  Why? Just one small section
of algae can promote a repetive infection and simply because there's a
human factor involved and all humans makes mistakes, oversights and
errors.  Say for instance that you sliped and forgot to clean 1 tool or
you was in a rush and used something that wasn't cleaned right wouldn't
this be a source of reinfection?  My theory on this is forget it, make
it as painless, effecient and easy as possible, i.e. use the KISS
principal (Keep it Simple Stupid)

>> You imply that using a preventative approach is somehow not a real
world
>> environment. More propaganda ;-)
>>

sorry I did not imply this.

>> Of course there are other forms of algae such as unicellular (green
>> water) and cyanobacteria (BG) which do travel as spores and you do
need
>> to understand how to control these. It is much much much much easier
to
>> prevent an infestation of filament algae by simply bleaching the
plants.
>> Remember that the same SAEs that eat BBA also love to eat Mayaca,
>> Heteranthera zosterifolia and fine leafed Rotala species.
>>
>> The old "treat the cause not the symptom" propaganda! This is purely
a
>> diversionary argument. Surely if you prevent certain types of algae
from
>> colonizing the aquarium, you are treating the cause. I can use the
same
>> argument to say that you are treating the symptom by using algae
eating

Again I have found, reduced and put a serious block on my bba outbreak
problem :) I used NO bleach, no chemicals, 100%  natural methods.
Currently I have NO visible bba in the tank (but yet I know it's there,
do I care? no why? cause I know how to effectively deal with it next
time :)

>> fish and by employing strategies to limit nutrients in the water
column.
>> Of course, you STILL have to limit nutrients in the water column or
>> OTHER types of algae like green water, will bloom. But limiting
>> nutrients alone will never make a thick mess of filament algae die.
If
>> you have a thick mess of Spyrogyra, its very very difficult to keep
>> other fish alive and keep algae eating fish hungry enough to consume
the
>> mess. With tougher filament algae, its even MORE difficult to get
>> anything to eat it. What eats Cladophora? The stuff is like
horsehair??
>> Most of the PLANTS in an aquarium are more palatable than horsehair
>> algae!!

Again my theory is simple.  Knowledge is power, when I get a problem in
my tanks I look for natural methods, why it is happening, what is
causing it, what can I do about it (yes I even look at other methods
like bleach) how other people have delt with it.  In the end I find
myself more knowing about what I am trying to do.

>>
>> Ed, are you sure you aren't George Booth using a fake email address??

>> ;-) Nah, George would never apologize for heating me up. ;-)
>>
>> Steve Pushak                              Vancouver, BC, CANADA

Uhm, not the last time I checked I was not.  I have talked to mr. booth
on here a few times, think it was about co2 usage.

Ed