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Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #646

Hello Bob,

Apparently you did everything right, there is no point to pursue it

By the way, *fresh* batery acid is also sulfuric acid. In some parts it
might be easier to obtain. (*Used* batery acid does contain lead.)



IDMiamiBob at aol_com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/15/98 10:20:07 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> yurko at warwick_net writes:
> >  There *must* be another reason than
> >  "gassing off" why the pH rose. Was there any cigarette (or other) smoke
> >  (amines)?
> No one here smokes
> > Did anybody wash the floor in the house (ammonia)?
> Spic and Span.  I have never noticed any ammonia smell from that.  I'm single,
> and not a particularly good housekeeper.
> > Other trace
> >  sources of alkalies? And I mean *traces* -- it does not take much at
> >  those concentrations. Some alkaline substance in the air would account
> >  for the observation that covering the tank slowed down the acidity loss.
> Then is anyone's fish safe?  Just scrubbing the kitchen should take all of my
> S. American tanks out of tolerance.  The same pH rise was not observed when
> using sulphuric acid in the same house, exposed to the same chemical agents at
> the same intervals and concentrations.  Domestic contaminants is an unlikely
> consideration.
> >  You don't mention the original hardness, alkalinity and pH of the water,
> GH 60 ppm, alkalinity 80ppm.  I originally questioned these values, but the
> local water works confirmed them to be consistent with their tests, and
> several folks on the Apisto list confirmed that this is possible, and even
> common.  The pH started at 7.8
> >  how much acid you added, as well as the final values, except final
> >  alkalinity of 40 ppm. What was the final pH and how much it rose?
> The exact details escape me.  I added something like one TBSP per gallon of 2%
> HCL to get a short term drop from pH 7.8 to 6.5.  The next day, alkalinity was
> down to 60ppm and pH was back up to 7.6.  I repeated the dose and the next day
> it was an alkalinity of 40ppm and pH 7.4.  After that, there was no long term
> change (overnight), although I could get a drop of about 1.0 in pH in the
> first few minutes after dosing.
> >What type/brand of pH meter did you use? any other experimental details --
> >  what indicator is used in your alkalinity kit, etc.?
> I am not sophisticated enough to spend big money on eloctronic gadgets.  I
> used the Wardley alkalinity kit which requires adding titrant to a vial.  By
> increasing the volume of the test sample, I can adjust the accuracy down to a
> pretty tight scale, like 5ppm.  I have a number of pH kits floating around.  I
> used primarily the Tetra and Aq. Pharmaceuticals tests.  The alkalinity test
> was purchased new at the time the test began, and my pH test kits don't ever
> get old enough for the reagents to exceed their functional shelf lifes.
> Dave Gomberg confirmed from his own experience that 40ppm was as low as he
> would expect the alkalinity to drop using HCl.
> With Sulphuric acid, I got steady reductions in alkalinity until it was gone.
> Then I could reduce pH to 6.5, or for some of the fish, even 5.5 with no
> problem.  The first suphuric acid test was run in the same tank after I washed
> it thouroughly (okay, so I just rinsed it a bunch, no cleansers or chemicals)
> and set it back on the same stand, in the same room, exposed to the same
> routine "household vapors".
> I don't know what else I can offer to say, George, except maybe you can run
> some tests of your own, and maybe find that "other explanation".  I'm sold on
> Dry acid from the swimming pool store.  Yes, I know it is a modifoed form of
> suphuric acid.  Don't ask this layman to tell you what else is in there.  I
> only know for sure that it gives the results I want and muriatic acid doesn't
> Also worthy of note:  I was using up the 2% solution to reduce buffering in a
> bucket of water shortly after I finished my test.  I overtightened the cap and
> cracked it.  About a week later I noticed this crack, and tested the solution
> to see if it was still good.  Guess what?  pH had risen from 1.7 to 6.8.  My
> explanation as to why?  Yep, gassing off.  I keep these chemicals on a high
> shelf in the garage where they are safe from the rugrats.  As my garage is too
> busy storing things to house my car, the door only gets opened when retrieving
> bikes and lawnmowers and such.  No fumes from the car.  Either it gassed off,
> or the air in this fairly small Rocky Mountain town is more polluted than John
> Denver would have us to believe.
> Bob Dixon