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Re: Supplementing pmdd with Jobe's
Aquatic Plants Digest wrote:
>
> Aquatic Plants Digest Monday, October 19 1998 Volume 03 : Number 585
>
> In this issue:
>
> Truncated APDs
> Administrivia - previously lost :)
> PAR conversions
> foreground plants
> Re: holes in leaves
> Muddy thoughts
> Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #584
> Re: Muddy thoughts
> If I knew you were coming I'd have baked a cake
> If I knew you were coming I'd have baked a cake
> Supplementing PMDD with Jobe's 16-2-6
> Otoclinius feeding
>
> See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing from the
> Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:45:27 -0500
> From: Cynthia S Powers <cyn at metronet_com>
> Subject: Truncated APDs
>
> I'm aware of the problem with the truncated APDs and am working with Mark
> Rosenstein to try to fix it. Thanks to Steve Pushak for his sharp eyes in
> seeing a possible cause.
>
> The digests are present in their untruncated form in the archives. See my
> .sig for the URL.
>
> Cynthia
> APD ListMom
>
> **************************************
> http://www.metronet.com/~cyn in slightly cooler north central Texas
>
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> http://EbayUsers.listbot.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:49:29 -0500
> From: Cynthia S Powers <cyn at metronet_com>
> Subject: Administrivia - previously lost :)
>
> I just want to remind everyone that any email you send to the list from an
> address other than the one you used when you subscribed will *not* make it
> to the list. All "non-subscriber" email is bounced; if you're sending
> from a different address, the software considers your email non-subscriber.
>
> The APD receives approximately 25-30 non-subscribers posts per day;
> probably 10-25% of them are the spam the bounce script is intended to keep
> off the list. I glance at the others but do not have time to search the
> subscriber list for each and every sender (and all possible permutations of
> their email addresses) to determine if the sender is subscribed. If I
> recognize the name on the post, I forward it to the list - otherwise it
> goes to the trash folder.
>
> If you want your posts to appear in the digest, you *must* send your email
> from the same address you used to subscribe. If your posts are
> consistently not showing up and you think you *are* sending from the same
> address, email me (cyn at metronet_com or APD-owner at actwin_com) and I can
> check into the problem.
>
> ObPlants: I recall George Booth saying, in the not too distant past, that
> it took a number of years (3-4?) before plants grew very well in low-tech
> tanks. I am pleased to announce that I can corroborate this. I have a
> 29G show tank with UGF, 3" of fine gravel substrate, no CO2, substrate
> amendment or anything else but fish, light and a splash of iron-intensive
> fertilizer now and then. The crypts and Amazon swords have always been
> okay, Vallisneria wouldn't grow and the Java fern grew very well. Last
> summer, after being set up for ~4 years, the crypts and swords literally
> exploded with growth. The swords are deep green, put on a couple of
> leaves a week and are going to have to be divided soon. Vals are now
> growing well and - most dramatically - the crypts developed much deeper red
> color, began sending out runners like crazy and shot up and reached the
> surface of the water. My previously
> nicely-planted-but-nothing-spectacular Zero Tech tank looks like a jungle.
> Boy am I impressed :)
>
> Cynthia
> **************************************
> http://www.metronet.com/~cyn in slightly cooler north central Texas
>
> Fish & Aquarium List Members Page
> http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/6635
> Fish & Aquarium list archives
> http://www.listserv.emory.edu/archives/aquarium.html
> Aquatic Plants Digest archives
> http://www.actwin.com/fish/aquatic-plants/index.cgi
> eBay Users discussion list
> http://EbayUsers.listbot.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:59:11 EDT
> From: Petemohan at aol_com
> Subject: PAR conversions
>
> Steve Pushak recently asked me if I would take some measurements of metal
> halide lamps with my PAR and foot-candle meters. Suspecting this had already
> been done by someone in the coral hobby, I contacted Dana Riddle who shares my
> interest in the subject and who has written much about lighting and presented
> papers at the Western Marine Conference and MACNA. Dana has also been bitten
> by the plant bug, and expects to have an article on lighting for planted
> aquaria published in one of the major magazines in the coming year.
> Dana asks only that when this information is reproduced or forwarded that his
> business, Riddle Aquatic Laboratories, be credited as the source, and that
> their email address (102622.524 at compuserve_com) be listed.
> Some additional data of my own (conversions for a number of fluorescent
> lamps) will appear in an upcoming Aquatic Gardener. Together these two sets
> of data should cover most of the lamps in use for planted aquaria.
> Here is Dana's data: Multiply Lux readings by the following conversion
> factors to obtain PAR values.
> > Sunlight - 0.02000
> > Metal Halide Lamps
> > AB 150w 6,800 K- 0.02000
> > Coralife 175w 10,000K - 0.02128
> > Coralife 175w 20,000K - 0.02128
> > Coralife 250w 10,000K - 0.01887
> > Coralife 400w 10,000K - 0.02041
> > Hamilton 175w "True 10K" - 0.01852
> > Iwasaki 400w "Daylight" - 0.01754 (using CWA ballast)
> > Osram 150w 5,600K PowerStar - 0.01818
> > Radium 400w "Blue" - 0.02083
> > Fluorescent Lamps
> > Hamilton Compact Fluorescents (4x55w, 2 Daylight / 2 Actinic Combo) -
> > 0.02000
> > Sylvania PowerCompacts (4x96w, 2 daylight/ 2 actinic combination) - 0.01852
> > URI VHO Fluorescent Lamps (4x110w, 2 daylight / 2 actinic combination) -
> > 0.02083
>
> Many thanks to Dana!
> Pete Mohan
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:16:31 -0700
> From: Steve Pushak <teban at powersonic_bc.ca>
> Subject: foreground plants
>
> Karen Randall wrote:
> > >Does any one know of any way to get this plant to grow to its "carpet"
> > >potential, I have a bunch that has spread somewhat with small runners.
> > >What I have read is that it likes bright light, yet in my tank (29g 60w,
> > >sand substrate) the plant spreads to areas of lower light?? Any Hints?
> >
> > If you are talking about Lillaeopsis, I find that it grows better with
> > light levels closer to 3w/g. It also seems to prefer water a little harder
> > than Glossostigma, making it a good option for those who have problems with
> > that plant. It does best in a fine substrate, as it has a hard time
> > staying rooted in coarse materials. As long as part of it has bright
> > light, the stand will also creep around into shadier areas of the tank. In
> > these areas, the blades will be longer, but so will the space between blades.
>
> If you have a densely planted aquarium, you may not get enough light on
> your Lillaeopsis for it to thrive. It really needs quite strong light.
>
> Another plant which I would like to recommend is Marsilea, the so-called
> 4 leaf clover plant. It spreads in much the same way as Lilleaopsis but
> can grow in much lower light. It only has the distinctive 4 leaf form
> when grown emersed (how it is grown for sale). Submerged it has a single
> ovate leaf but it looks (I am told) very much like a grove of
> Glossostigma.
>
> The plant is now widely available within our Vancouver circle of aquatic
> plant growers. I've also given some samples to Erik and Karen but I
> think Karen may already have this in her collection. I'll bet that a lot
> more people who read the APD also have it so if you do and you have some
> to spare, I think it would be all right to place a short message in the
> APD for the benefit of those people looking for it. Karen won't thank me
> if you flood her inbox with requests for it!
>
> I remember a couple of years ago before Lillaeopsis was first brought
> into Vancouver for sale; I saw some in a planted display at Aquarium
> Services but they refused to sell any at any price, even a tiny sprig.
> Later on I got a pot of the stuff and now I think everyone in the
> Vancouver circle has the stuff.
>
> Steve Pushak Vancouver, BC, CANADA
>
> Visit "Steve's Aquatic Page" http://home.infinet.net/teban/
> for LOTS of pics, tips and links for aquatic gardening!!!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:23:04 -0700
> From: Steve Pushak <teban at powersonic_bc.ca>
> Subject: Re: holes in leaves
>
> Holes in Sword leaves it not typical of potassium deficiency. It is more
> commonly observed in fast growing plants like Hygrophila. Holes in Sword
> leaves might be caused by the rasping of a Plecostomus catfish however
> it might also be due to a shortage of any of several minerals. Its best
> to have a balanced supply of all mineral nutrients. 1/8 tsp of KNO3 per
> day sounds very excessive to me. Are you also changing 10 gallons of
> water each day?
>
> Steve Pushak Vancouver, BC, CANADA
>
> Visit "Steve's Aquatic Page" http://home.infinet.net/teban/
> for LOTS of pics, tips and links for aquatic gardening!!!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:02:21 -0400
> From: krandall at world_std.com
> Subject: Muddy thoughts
>
> Olga Betts wrote:
>
> >I wish to throw something out there for discussion. At a recent get
> >together of fish and plant people the statement was made that aquatic
> >plants should be given what they really grow in best and that was mud.
>
> George wrote:
>
> >I think all, er, most of us would agree that we get pretty darn good growth
> >with the variety of substrates that we use, whether they be hideously
> >expensive
> >Duplarit, dirt cheap kitty litter or anything in between. Assuming, of
> >course,
> >that other basic plant requirements like lighting and nutrients are met. For
> >those of us who are successful with plants I think the biggest problem is
> the
> >growth is *too* good, requiring more pruning than we would like.
>
> Olga knows my feelings on this subject, since the statement was made during
> my talk in Seattle. But I'll add my comments to Olga's and George's for
> those on the list. I mention in my talks that some people do use soil
> substrates because that's a fact of life. I even include photos of some
> soil based tanks. I'm not saying that no one has really beautiful tanks
> with a soil substrate at large in a tank, but I haven't seen one yet. The
> two nicest soil substrate tanks I've seen have had all or almost all the
> plants in pots. (and these two tanks are _very_ nice!)
>
> I then go on to say that I personally _don't_ use soil substrates, and
> after one experiment in that direction, have no intention of trying again.
> Not that it is a dismal failure, but it's never been up to the standards of
> my laterite substrate tanks. It is soon to be replaced by a larger tank
> anyway, and I'll return to the substrate system that has been fool proof
> for me in many tanks over many years.
>
> I _do_ occasionally use soil for some difficult plants, but I use it in
> pots, just for those particular plants. A little goes a long way. As
> George said, most of my plants do better in a "plain" laterite substrate
> than I need them to do.<g>
>
> I STRONGLY urge novice to stick to a commercial laterite substrate or one
> of the other commercially available substrates. (I've seen very nice tanks
> set up with the Sera substrate, and I'd love to see really nice tanks set
> up with other commercial substrate additives)
>
> Karen Randall
> Aquatic Gardeners Association
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:59:29 -0700
> From: Olga Betts <sae at arts_ubc.ca>
> Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #584
>
> >From: Steve Pushak <teban at powersonic_bc.ca>
> >Subject: re: Muddy thoughts
> >>
> >Olga asks: is it true? "Plant grow better in mud"
>
> I did not ask "is it true plants grow better in mud"?. You should re-read
> my post. My thoughts had to do with whether or not one should try to be so
> "real" in an aquarium. I, personally feel that a small unnatural ecosystem
> like an aquarium does not handle well a "natural" substrate...meaning mud.
> And I asked for thoughts on that.
>
> I know the idea is not to grow the biggest plants fastest, Steve. I have
> never felt that I am in a contest.
>
> Olga
> in Vancouver and can't we get that missing APD??
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:44:57 -0600
> From: George Booth <booth at frii_com>
> Subject: Re: Muddy thoughts
>
> >Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 01:03:11 -0700
> >From: Steve Pushak <teban at powersonic_bc.ca>
> >
> >>Olga asks: is it true? "Plants grow better in mud"
> >
> >Why certainly!!
> >
> >All plants (even algae) grow better when they have a good supply of
> >nutrients!
>
> I fail to see any logic in this pair of statements. What you are saying is:
> "If you have mud, you have the correct nutrients, QED." As someone pointed
> out, all mud is not created equal.
>
> And, of course, you are implying that "If you don't have mud, your plants
> will not grow was well as they would if they had mud."
>
> I don't have mud in my tanks and I would opine that my plants grow better
> than your plants. Dueling photos at High Noon?
>
> >Mud is a better supply of nutrients than sand. That's a fact. Mud is a
> >better supply of nutrients than say sand and real laterite because
> >laterite alone will not contain many trace nutrients beyond iron and
> >will contain little or no macro nutrients. This is not necessarily true
> >of the substrate amendments sold by aquarium outlets; they may have
> >ADDED nutrients or they may require you to buy additional nutrient
> >tablets for the substrate.
>
> Yes, mud may have more nutrients than sand, sand+laterite or sand+laterite+
> proper fertilizers. In fact, mud has TOO MANY nutrients and will, in fact,
> lead to algae problems. When you use mud, you DO NOT have control over the
> nutrient level in your tank. If you use mud for a substrate, you are
> quaranteed to have an algae problem. Review some of your own postings if
> you don't beleive me.
>
> >I think that laterite is a buzz word that is
> >very popular for marketing purposes (aside from its useful properties).
>
> I think it's more a buzz word used by newbies. As far as I know, only two
> products claim to use laterite: Duplarit and Substrate Gold. All the other
> buzz about laterite comes from people using art clay, red Georgia (not
> relation) clay and any other red dirt that turns up and calling it
> "laterite".
>
> >But remember that mud can be a mixture of many things.
>
> Amen, brother.
>
> >I believe that you want to use some type of clay mixed with sand that
> >will provide a broad range of trace nutrients. I think you want to AVOID
> >soils which are overly fertile in the macro nutrients nitrogen and
> >phosphorus. I think you want soils which will have a stable effect on pH
> >that is, not too high in limestone nor too high in humins.
> >
> >I think its not too hard to find suitable materials to create a good
> >substrate but for some folks, its just too bothersome to try to read and
> >understand all of the "technical" details. For those folks, the best
> >thing is to go with something proven, low cost and readily available.
>
> Wow, was there *almost* a recommendation there? So close, yet so far.
>
>
> George Booth, Ft. Collins, Colorado (booth at frii_com)
> Back on-line! New URL! Slightly new look! Same good data!
> http://www.frii.com/~booth/AquaticConcepts/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:56:21 -0700
> From: Dave Gomberg <gomberg at wcf_com>
> Subject: If I knew you were coming I'd have baked a cake
>
> One of the oldest and wisest bits of wisdom on this list is:
>
> DON'T MIX RECIPES.
>
> So I am working on a web page on this topic. To build it, I need (among
> other things) a list of recipes.
>
> If you know of a recipe for how to do planted tanks not in the short list
> below (and I am sure there are a dozen), please mail me off list.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> - --
> Dave Gomberg, San Francisco mailto:gomberg at wcf_com
> <a href="http://www.wcf.com/wcf">My home page</a>
> - -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:03:59 -0700
> From: Dave Gomberg <gomberg at wcf_com>
> Subject: If I knew you were coming I'd have baked a cake
>
> One of the oldest and wisest bits of wisdom on this list is:
>
> DON'T MIX RECIPES.
>
> So I am working on a web page on this topic. To build it, I need (among
> other things) a list of recipes.
>
> If you know of a recipe for how to do planted tanks not in the short list
> below (and I am sure there are a dozen), please mail me off list.
>
> Ooops, forgot the list the first time:
>
> Randall School recipe
> Booth Dupla recipe
> Quackenbush low tech approach
> http://www.malloftheworld.com/aquarium/part1.htm
> Karl Schoeler page reference?
> Steve Pushak page reference?
> Conlin and Sears (is there a whole recipe or just nutrients?)
> Olga Betts page reference?
>
> Gosh, who have I failed to remember?????
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> - --
> Dave Gomberg, San Francisco mailto:gomberg at wcf_com
> <a href="http://www.wcf.com/wcf">My home page</a>
> - -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:07:29 EDT
> From: TomWood3 at aol_com
> Subject: Supplementing PMDD with Jobe's 16-2-6
>
> After trying to supply all my tank's needs with PMDD, I've given up because it
> was just too "reactive". I was having to dose KNO3 separately and never could
> get a stable dosage level. The plants kept surging and stalling. In a 60
> gallon, I've broken up 4 Jobe's sticks and pushed them under selected plants.
> I'm now dosing the PMDD mainly for the trace elements. A post in the APD
> archives suggested that 3 or 4 sticks every two months would be appropriate
> for a 60 gallon. Any thoughts on this? I suppose that keeping nitrates in
> the 5 ppm range is still appropriate for algae control, but I'm hoping the
> plants will be less sensitive to this parameter with the substrate fertilizer
> now. Anybody else supplement PMDD this way?
>
> TIA
>
I think you're really on the right track, but substrate fertilization in
an already set up tank is technically difficult. We've tried pushing
all kinds of fertilizers into the substrate under plants. Often the
results aren't good because you end up placing too much fertilizer under
a single plant. Also, good placement is difficult to do without
damaging sensitive roots. If you try to place a very small amount it
desolves before you can get it placed. We would like to suggest and
alternative approach. That approach is to form your own small
(1/4"Lenght X 1/4" dia) pellets of pmdd of other formulations from the
dry components. These pellets can then be precision inserted under
individual plants without damage to roots or substrate. There is a
simple system available over the internet that will allow you to "press"
your own pellets of pmdd, laterite, osmocot. etc, then precision insert
them. Because of the rules of this forum, it would be inappropriate for
us to give you a URL of the system. But there is a system available to
solve these fertilization problems.
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:16:02 GMT+2
> From: "Jacques" <jgerber at Rhobot_ru.ac.za>
> Subject: Otoclinius feeding
>
> Hello All:
>
> I finally aquired three Oto's for my 50L plant tank. I ordered them
> three months ago, and they finally arrived on Saturday. Problem is
> that my tank has little algae other than Spirogyra, which I remove
> mechanically. How do I feed these critters? Its a bit tricky getting
> zuchini at the moment (we call it "baby marrow", but its the same
> thing), and I can't get the more expensive prepared foods here
> either. The shops just won't stock it. Can I use Peas?
>
> Jacques
>
> ___________________________________________________
>
> Jacques Gerber
> Botany Department
> Rhodes University
> Grahamstown
> 6140
> South Africa
>
> Dept Tel#: 046 6038596
> Dept Fax#: 046 6225524
> Home Tel#: 046 6225000
> ___________________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #585
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