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Subject: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #89
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Aquatic Plants Digest Wednesday, 22 May 1996 Volume 02 : Number 089
In this issue:
Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #88
Re: High levels of phosphates and nitrates
Ammonium and nitrifying bacteria
Cypress Stump
Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #88
CO2 woes
Surface film
Green water fallacies?
Ammonium Thanks
Filtration, Phosphate/Nitrate levels and Algae Eaters
Plant food
See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the
Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott benson frost <sbfrost at indiana_edu>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:16:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #88
If you are looking for more information to solve you nitrate
problem, there is a really good article you may want to check out in this
month's addition of aquarium magazine. It talks about a couple of
different factors of nitrate and how to manage them.
Take a look,
Scott Frost
(sbfrost at indiana_edu)
------------------------------
From: krombhol at felix_TECLink.Net (Paul Krombholz)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:16:46 -0500
Subject: Re: High levels of phosphates and nitrates
>
Douglas Duncan <duncand at sprynet_com> wrote May 21:
>I'm having a problem with high levels of phosphates in all my tanks, and my
>50gal chiclid tank which has no plants, also has elevated levels of nitrates.
>Phosphates combined with nitrates...guess what. Yep I've got an algae bloom.
>It's diatoms specifically. brownish red dusting all over the glass, heater,
>gravel, etc.. Low lighting may also be playing a part in it, but the phosphate
>is in excess of 10ppm and the nitrate is around 35ppm. Prior to this
>outbreak, >I recently did a delicate all day shifting of the entire
>contents of a 20gal >with fish, gravel, etc., to a new 50gal tank and
>hood. I'm thinking that >because I had to add a lot more fresh water than
>I would have during a regular >water change, plus adding more new gravel
>to the old, perhaps the bacteria >colonies were more severely smitten than
>I figured they'd be, and now I'm >getting some spikes on these elements a
>little like cycling all over again.
>
>Here's the question that qualifies this message in the plants mail list. What
>exactly are the optimum levels desired in planted tanks for phosphate,
>nitrates,
>and iron? Recall that I'm having phosphate levels in my 75g and 50g planted
>tanks as well. The books I have and the test kit instructions don't come
>out and
>say for example, phosphate level should be 0ppm or 5ppm. Same thing with the
>iron. I'm pretty sure nitrates should be kept as close to 0 as possible.
>
>I don't think you want 0 phosphates as plants need a small amount to aid in
>photosynthesis don't they? If they get too much then they become damaged and
>algae grows better right? I have a lot of algae right now, and I didn't know I
>had phosphates til I got the test kit today.
>
Since nitrates and phosphates are the end products of bacterial oxidation,
I don't think that high levels of these two forms indicate failure of
bacterial activity, such as spikes of ammonia or nitrite do. Bacteria can
oxidize ammonia or nitrite, but they don't do anything to nitrate unless
you have somewhere some anaerobic, reducing conditions, where bacteria will
reduce nitrate to atmospheric nitrogen, N2. Usually, reducing conditions
release phosphate which has been tied up as insoluble iron or calcium
salts. It is my guess that, if you did not have these high values of
nitrate and phosphate before you moved the contents from 20 gal to 50 gal,
the reason you are getting them now is because you had some plants in the
20 gal that were taking them up and are not doing that in the 50 gal. The
best way to lower these nutrients is to get some fast growing plants, such
as Hygrophila polysperma or Ceratopteris, and give them plenty of light and
CO2. In a few weeks, your tests kits will read 0, and you will be pulling
a lot of plant biomass out to take to the local tropical fish store for
trade.
Because very sensitive chemical tests for phosphate exist, a lot more is
known about utilization of that element in lakes. It is known that aquatic
plants are extremely capable of removing phosphate from very dilute
solutions and can lower the concentration of phosphate to less than one
part per billion. In fact, the uptake ability of plants is so good that a
given phosphate molecule doesn't last very long in a typical lake before it
is taken up. The very low amount in the water turns out not to be a good
measure of how much is available, because there is rapid turnover.
Phosphorus is released by decay of organic matter and then taken up by
plants. Turnover times in the order of 1 hour to 15 minutes in lakes have
been measured. That means that in 1 hour to as short a time as 15 minutes
all the dissolved phosphorus was taken up and replaced by an equivalent
amount released by decay. Under these conditions, I doubt that phosphate
test kits available to hobbyists would measure any phosphorus, and yet, the
plants can be getting more than enough to support maximum rates of growth.
I have not been able to keep up with the literature on nutrient uptake by
aquatic plants, but I am convinced that aquatic plants are very good at
taking up nitrate, also. (I am lumping algae and higher aquatic plants
together, here) I have a Hatch kit that tests nitrate down to 1 PPM, and I
have tanks where I get a measurment of 0 PPM, then I add some nutrient
solution containing nitrate, getting imediately afterwards, a reading of
several PPM. A week later, I again measure 0 PPM. I have seen rapid
greening and growth responses in tanks where I have had visible nitrogen
deficiency when I have added enough nutrient solution to raise the nitrate
level from 0 to 0.6 PPM.
A number of people on this mailing list believe that they are controlling
algae by having a thick growth of 'higher' aquatic plants that get the
upper hand in the competition for phosphorus and probably other nutrients.
This may well be the case. My only contention is that this competition is
occurring at nutrient levels way way below the levels that our test kits
can measure.
Paul Krombholz Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, MS 39174
In hot, humid Mississippi where the Bermuda High has set up shop early and
kept away the rain.
------------------------------
From: "Olive K. Charlsey" <achaudh at emory_edu>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:20:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ammonium and nitrifying bacteria
I wrote:
> > Your picture of what is going on is a little off. Think of it l
> > this - You are in a closed room with a burning candle. The candl
> > using up O2 and therefore you are competing with the candle for
> > Because of the candle, at any point in time, the amount of oxyge
> > had available to you was less that there would have been if the
> > not been there, right?
>
> > Also, the concentration of NH3 or NH4 in your tank is
> > theoretically _never_ zero. When we say that the test kit reads
> > really mean that the concentration is *undetectable*.
>
Karen wrote:
> True, but that's not exactly the same situation as we have in an
> aquarium. We definitely have a finite amount of nitrogen
> available. (in whatever form) It is _absolutely_ possible to have
> a situation where there is little enough nitrogen (in whatever
> form) available that the plants are nitrogen limited.
I write:
In the closed room, there is also a finite amount of O2. I think I
may be misunderstood. And, if you follow my analogy, the candle and the
person will eventually suffocate (eachother/itself). The key in the room
analogy would be to find a plant that grows rapidly enough to sustain both
the candle and the person indefinitely. In an aquarium, the key is to feed
just the right amount. The way I look at it, the macronutrients are the
easiest to control so they are the best choices for the limiting reagent.
> IMO, that's why it may make sense to use excess biological
> filtration in a heavily stocked tank, but not in one that is
> heavily planted and lightly stocked. In this case, commensurately
> large water changes will have to be done frequently to limit the
> build up of nitrate.
I agree.
> If you _never_ see any measureable nitrate in your tank, odds
> are that the tank is at least slightly nitrogen limited.
Right. I agree again, but being right on the verge of limitation
and abundance is our goal. Better to be slightly on the limiting side if
you want to control your algae growth.
AMC - in Atlanta where I am blessed with as-close-to replenished RO water as
you can get from a tap! 8)
------------------------------
From: svr at eecs_umich.edu (Steve Robertson)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:42:44 -0400
Subject: Cypress Stump
Justin Healy wrote:
>I've been lurking for two months now and have really learned a lot from
>all of you. thanks! I am about to help a friend of mine set up a 125
>gal. tank as a plant tank. We were wondering if we could use a section
>of a cypress stump that had been soaked for a week in a ten-percent
>solution of bleached and then thoroughly dechlorinated? Any opinions?
I once placed a cedar stump that I found near Austin, TX in one of my
tanks. I went through several months of bleaching/rinsing/drying to try to
rid the wood of any unwanted bugs, and I must say that it looked awesome in
my 20 gallon tank. However, I found that just about any type of catfish
that I put in this tank eventually died. This included corys, otos, and
farlowellas (ouch!). I had never had any trouble keeping these types of
fish before, and I haven't had any trouble with them since I removed the
stump from the tank.
I also noticed that the otos and farlowellas, which normally love to rasp
on wood, went nowhere near the cedar stump.
My conclusion is that there is some sort of toxin in the cedar wood that
leaches into the water and is poisonous to various types of catfish. I
would suspect the same might be true for your cypress stump, and I would
definitely test it in a quarantine tank with some "stunt" fish to see if
anyone is affected. Note that in general, I have had good success with
putting wood in my tanks after bleaching and rinsing/dechlorinating. Most
of the time it works quite well, but only with hard woods such as oak, etc.
Steve in Ann Arbor, were it is as nice as it could possibly be today.
------------------------------
From: krombhol at felix_TECLink.Net (Paul Krombholz)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:51:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #88
Stephen.Pushak at saudan_HAC.COM wrote, Tuesday, May 21:
......<snipped>......... What's the scoop on GBA in Canada? It would appear
to >be available in the US. I figured it might be useful for recalcitrant
>Aponogeton tubers. Honestly! ;-)
>
I have found that dormant Aponogeton tubers can be stimulated to grow by
putting them in very low light (ordinary room light, about 20 foot candles)
for two weeks, and then returning them to high light. It worked for me
with a bunch of dormant A. undulatus tubers.
Paul Krombholz Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, MS 39174
In hot, humid Mississippi where some of your nice, cool Canadian air,
Stephen and Olga, would be most appreciated now.
------------------------------
From: Sharon Stewart <102402.2256 at CompuServe_COM>
Date: 22 May 96 13:44:00 EDT
Subject: CO2 woes
Hello, I'm a recent subscriber to this list, and I'm about ready to pull my hair
out over co2!! I have a 110 gallon planted tank (w/ two 175w metal halide
lights) that was set up in Dec. For various reasons I wasn't able to get CO2
added to it until a month ago. I'm using a Sandpoint controller with their co2
system and I'm having a very difficult time keeping the ph stabilized.
My tap water has a KH of 3 (tetra kit) and ph of 7.1. Before the co2 was
added the tank water ph was swinging out of control (7 to 8 one day 8 to 9 the
next) and KH was dropping to 2. I have the controller set to turn on the co2 at
7.3 w/ a bubble a second. It works great for a day or so and then the ph
starts climbing to 7.6 and above. I keep swearing at the reactor, but maybe
that isn't the culprit? The Sandpoint reactor has been very difficult for me to
regulate. When I first got it, it was next to impossible for me to find a
balance between enough water flow going through the reactor and blowing the co2
out of the reactor. I'm using an Aquaclear 802 powerhead (the 301 wasn't
powerful enough).
This is driving me crazy, every day I'm fiddling with the co2. Should I just
not worry about the rise? Or is my reactor just not very efficient? If it is my
reactor, can anyone suggest a better one?
Thanks
Sharon Stewart
------------------------------
From: olga at arts_ubc.ca
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:52:34 -0700
Subject: Surface film
>Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 14:15:30 PDT
>Subject: Re: Surface Film
>
>> From: svr at eecs_umich.edu (Steve Robertson)
>> First, to Mark McClean:
>>
<snip> but every day a slick clear film forms all over the surface of the
>> >tank. The pH is 6.8 and the water is soft. I have been skimming it off,
>> >but every day it returns. Is this related to having plants ? I have never
>> >had this problem in any other tank and at a loss as to what to do. I would
>> >appreciate any help.
>> >
<snip> I suspect the Mollies are responsible for clearing the surface,
>> since I see them "skimming" the surface as if they are eating something. I
>> don't think they are gasping for air, because they aren't breathing hard -
>> they really appear to be grazing at the surface.
>
>I have similar surface film which seems to be strongly related to the
>amount and type of food I'm feeding. (I'm feeding some Bettas for breeding
>and they get lots of fresh or frozen brine shrimp).<snip>
Steve, Mark and Stephen,
I had this film on my tank for months. Several people on the list suggested
iron as a cause and I now believe that to be true. The film on my tank has
recently gone away. I have Terralit in my gravel which contains iron and I
added rather too much Tropica Master Grow during the initial set up of my
tank. I have cut way back on the fertilizer and kept monitoring my iron
levels. Now that the iron is down to about .1 the film has disappeared and
the thread algae has also almost disappeared. I feed plankton and
bloodworms, flakes and shrimp pellets and I haven't made any feed changes
so I don't think it can be anything to do with feeding. I doubt if Mollies
would eat the film -- but who knows -- maybe, but I suspect the film's
disappearance had to do with the other changes mentioned. I think if you
have a greenish-white film on the surface of your tank that your iron
levels are too high.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Olga
in Vancouver where it's wet today.
------------------------------
From: gtong at sirius_com (G.Tong)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:19:25 -0700
Subject: Green water fallacies?
I've got another question for you all. Someone on the Goldfish List has
stated firmly that green water is caused by incomplete biological
filtration, that if our filters were working, there would never be green
water. His reasoning is that green water algae can only live when there is
ammonia around whereas "hairy algae" (his term not mine) can thrive on
nitrates and phosphates. He claims this is why green water is *never* found
in planted tanks.
Neither his conclusion nor his assumptions along the way sound right to me.
Advice? TIA.
Greg. Tong
San Francisco, CA, USA
gtong at sirius_com
"Every infinity is composed of only two halves."
------------------------------
From: gtong at sirius_com (G.Tong)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:19:18 -0700
Subject: Ammonium Thanks
Thanks all for the chemistry lesson and observations!
I don't keep discus but I do keep goldfish. On the Goldfish List, many of
us maintain base water where ammonia is potentially more of a problem. The
relationship of ammonia/ammonium to water temp is also interesting to me
because we tend to have more problems with goldfish in the summer months
when the tank temp rises. If the filter were already "saturated," then
faster metabolic activity in the fish plus an increase in the rate of
ammonia to ammonium could cause more stress on the fish.
Greg. Tong
San Francisco, CA, USA
gtong at sirius_com
"Every infinity is composed of only two halves."
------------------------------
From: krandall at world_std.com (Karen A Randall)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:14:13 -0400
Subject: Filtration, Phosphate/Nitrate levels and Algae Eaters
Subject: About filtration
> The topic of removing a filter is very interesting. The removing
> floating detrius and water circulation is what is meant by mecan
> filtration, no? But isn't it true that the nitrifying bacteria l
> filter and on the sides of the tank and in the gravel -- actuall
> the surfaces? In other words, biological filtration takes place
> degree no matter what.
That is true.
> I'm interested in the idea of minimal filtration. What kind of f
> system would be recommended by those who propose minimal filtrat
> 20 gallon tank at work I have an Aquaclear 150 filter. The spong
> catches dirt in the water but also acts as a biological filter b
> home to the bacteria. What could one replace it with?
As long as the tank is heavily planted, and _not_ heavily stocked,
and is fed lightly, you can probably just pull the filter out
completely. If you feel the need for some water circulation (some
plants definitely do better in moving water) you can drop in a
small powerhead.
------------------------------
Subject: Desired levels of various elements
>
> I'm having a problem with high levels of phosphates in all my ta
> 50gal chiclid tank which has no plants, also has elevated levels
> Phosphates combined with nitrates...guess what. Yep I've got an
> It's diatoms specifically. brownish red dusting all over the gla
> gravel, etc.. Low lighting may also be playing a part in it, but
> is in excess of 10ppm and the nitrate is around 35ppm. Prior to
> recently did a delicate all day shifting of the entire contents
> fish, gravel, etc., to a new 50gal tank and hood. I'm thinking t
> had to add a lot more fresh water than I would have during a reg
> change, plus adding more new gravel to the old, perhaps the bact
> were more severely smitten than I figured they'd be, and now I'm
> spikes on these elements a little like cycling all over again.
The buildup of nitrate and phospahte is _not_ from cycling a new
tank. They build up in any tank where there is more put into the
system via fish waste, feeding, etc. than can be removed either by
water changes or plants. You will ammonia and then nitrite spikes
in a cycling tank... when these levels fall and nitrAte appears,
the tank is full cycled. (note: the cycle is much diminished, if
noticeable at all, in a fully planted tank)
> Here's the question that qualifies this message in the plants ma
> exactly are the optimum levels desired in planted tanks for phos
> and iron? Recall that I'm having phosphate levels in my 75g and
> tanks as well. The books I have and the test kit instructions do
> say for example, phosphate level should be 0ppm or 5ppm. Same th
> iron. I'm pretty sure nitrates should be kept as close to 0 as p
>
> I don't think you want 0 phosphates as plants need a small amoun
> photosynthesis don't they? If they get too much then they become
> algae grows better right? I have a lot of algae right now, and I
> had phosphates til I got the test kit today.
Both phosphorus and nitrogen are absolutely essential for the
growth of plants. But they are needed in much smaller amounts
than are usually present in a "fish" tank... certainly less than
you have in yours. I prefer to keep nitrate below 10ppm (below
5ppm is better) and phosphate below 1ppm (I'm happiest if the
level is unmeasureable) IMO< as long as any iron is measureable
in the water, you probably have enough, or the plants would have
already pulled it out of the water.
------------------------------
Subject: Specific algae eaters for Diatom algae?
> Does anyone know if there is a specific algae eater that is note
> actively preferring diatom algae as part of it's staple diet? I'
> correcting some water imbalances in one of my tanks that have ke
> plagued with diatom algae for a long time, but I was thinking of
> an algae eater to this tank anyway, so I figure I might as well
> one that will find the smaller remainig amounts of this stuff ap
> Thanks
Yup. Otocinclus will polish off amazing amounts of diatoms... Six
of them _completely_ cleared out a 55G tank in one weekend a while
back.
------------------------------
Karen Randall
Aquatic Gardeners Assoc.
Boston, MA
------------------------------
From: Francis Ngoh <fngoh at asic_sc.ti.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:05:09 -0500
Subject: Plant food
Does anyone has any experiences with the following plant food
(advertized as no nitrates nor phosphates):
Seachem Pond Flourish: Aquatic Plant Stimulator $48.79 for 2 litres
Pond Care: Aquatic Plant Stimulator $8.78 @ 8 fl.oz.
Thanks,
Francis Ngoh
------------------------------
End of Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #89
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Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:39:06 -0400
From: Aquatic-Plants-Owner at ActWin_com
To: Aquatic-Plants at ActWin_com
Subject: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #89
Reply-To: Aquatic-Plants at ActWin_com