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Re: [APD] Disposing of Unwanted Fish



But, neons are a fish of a different color?

Vaughn

On Apr 28, 2007, at 5:43 AM, S. Hieber wrote:

> The rub here is the degree of complexity of the nervous system.  
> It's easy to anthropomorphize but it's not always correct. It had  
> for a long time been suggested that ants organizational compacities  
> for finding food was evidence of intelligient planning, yet the  
> behavior can be explained with resort to only a few simple  
> principles regarding stimulus/response re formic acid. The computer  
> model is relatively simple. Ants lay down a bit of formic acid  
> werever they go and they tend to follow along any trail of it  
> already laid down. They also tend to feed and bring food back along  
> the same trail to the nest. With this, random roamings tend rather  
> quickly into regular lines between the nest and any found food.
>
> Ascribing mimicry of human speach to parrots is easy; ascribing  
> word speach, much tougher.
>
> Is an ant aware of its own existence? I don't think it's very clear  
> what would count and necessary and sufficient conditons for  
> ascribing such a conscious state. It's easier with complex  
> organisms and harder the father away one goes. Rocks--no nervous  
> system at all an imputing consciousness would be farther than one  
> could reasonbly stretch the notion. Ants, not as much of a stretch  
> but still, the applicability is is a tough one -- some sort of  
> sentience but existential consciousness, 2nd order intentions  
> (thoughts about thoughts; thoughts about desires, desires about  
> thoughts, etc.) -- for that there is little evidence in the  
> behavior. Dogs, easier still. The folks behind the Apple Genius  
> Bar? From what I've seen, that's a tough one as purely mechanical  
> descriptions seem able to fully explain their behavior. But except  
> the rock, all these things respond to stimuli.
>
> Compared to an apisto, a cardinal tetra is positively moronic in  
> its behavior. I don't know what awareness a cardinal has of pain  
> because it's unclear what sort of conciousness a cardinal might  
> have. Given how much I don't know, I'd prefer the swiftest and  
> surest method of killing a cardinal should the need arise. But I am  
> not compelled to attribute human qualities or full rights of  
> personhood to cardinals.
>
>
> sh
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Terry S. <tgs1 at rni_net>
> To: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 8:16:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [APD] Disposing of Unwanted Fish
>
>
> According to the latest research, the limbic system is where we  
> feel whether
> something is agreeable or disagreeable, i.e. "good or bad."   It's  
> also the
> location of emotionally charged memories.  Fish have limbic  
> systems, though
> not quite as developed as in mammals.  Parameciums, earth worms,  
> mushrooms
> etc do not.
>
> You can draw your own conclusions, but it seems very likely that  
> fish do
> 'feel' fear (an emotion), let alone pain (a sensation) which as  
> Jerry says
> is just a response to stimulus.  There's been a lot of research on  
> animal
> emotions in the last 10 years and the conclusions are pretty amazing.
>
> Terry S. in AZ
>
>
>
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