[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [APD] Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 40, Issue 10



Bill said, "But for just growing plants, I don't think one needs that
degree of accuracy."

And Tom replied, in part, "Okay, let's accept that to be true. 
Here's the problem, it might not be an issue personally for you,
but it is very much so for many folks less lucky than yourself.

"I do not like luck personally, but will take it if it comes
along. Others are much less fortunate. I want to know what makes my tank
successful so I can help others. . ."

Is there really a significant difference between 20 ppm and 40 ppm of CO2,
as far as the health of aquatic plants is concerned?  I'd guess not, except
in very high light environments which live on the edge anyway.  

Remember when electric Ph meters first came into wide use?  People would
post "My Ph is 7.136 . . ."

If I have a BBA outbreak and you tell me to increase the CO2 level, I would
do that to get rid of the stuff.  To know why it works would require much
more knowledge of cellular biology that I have, but some, more curious,
would be inclined to study it in detail.  That is a very good thing, for
them if not for me.

Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: aquatic-plants-bounces+billinet=comcast_net at actwin.com
[mailto:aquatic-plants-bounces+billinet=comcast_net at actwin.com] On Behalf Of
aquatic-plants-request at actwin_com
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 9:43 PM
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
Subject: Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 40, Issue 10

Send Aquatic-Plants mailing list submissions to
	aquatic-plants at actwin_com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	aquatic-plants-request at actwin_com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	aquatic-plants-owner at actwin_com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Aquatic-Plants digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Excel and Inverts (Liz Wilhite)
   2. Re: Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 40, Issue 9 (Bill)
   3. Re: Algae and Trace Elements (S. Hieber)
   4. Re: Excel and Inverts (Vaughn Hopkins)
   5. Re: Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 40, Issue 9 (S. Hieber)
   6. Plywood under tank? (Gary)
   7. LED lights (Gary)
   8. Re: LED lights (S. Hieber)
   9. Re: Excel and Inverts (Terry Barber)
  10. Re: Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 40, Issue 9 (Liz Wilhite)
  11. Re: CO2 measurement (Thomas Barr)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 15:02:16 -0800
From: "Liz Wilhite" <satirica at gmail_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] Excel and Inverts
To: "aquatic plants digest" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

Terry,

No problems at all.  Read a thread about it a couple of weeks ago on APC
where a bunch of people all said the same thing -- no problems.

Liz

On 12/7/06, Terry Barber <terbarb at alltel_net> wrote:
>
> Has anybody had any problems with shrimp in an excel dosed tank?    I need
> to move some of my shrimp, but want to use Excel as well.    Just wanted
> to
> see if there's any experience out there.   Anybody had any problems with
> red
> shrimp breeding in an Excel dosed tank.
>
> Thanks for helping out.
>
> TerryB
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aquatic-Plants mailing list
> Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants
>



-- 
Liz


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:11:17 -0500
From: "Bill" <Billinet at comcast_net>
Subject: Re: [APD] Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 40, Issue 9
To: <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

>>Until such time as someone runs actual experiments, writes them up in a
journal article that includes proof of the mechanisms of causation, and
publishes the articles in appropriate peer-reviewed journals then all anyone
can talk about is coincidence rather than causation.  Anything less than
that is not authoritative no matter who says it unless it happens to be
written on stone tablets by a divinity.>>

Well of course!  <g>

If I tell my neighbor that I found the trout to be feeding on green caddis
flies, that is just an observation and without scientific merit, but if he
then goes to the stream and fishes with green caddis flies, he is more
likely than not to be successful.

It would be interesting to know why the trout are more interested in green
caddis flies today, but not essential to the catching of them.  To the best
of my knowledge, nobody has published the reason for that preference, either
in peer-reviewed journals or fishing magazines. 

Truth is what works, eh?

Bill







------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 15:15:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "S. Hieber" <shieber at yahoo_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] Algae and Trace Elements
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

And Hume do you think will be the final arbiter on whether coincidental
events are connected by causal action? ;-)
You Kuhn think that lab results alone will be paradigmatic but science is
wiggly and there's always room for jello. The Quine of thing that might nail
it down could be simply an appeal to induction, or as Henry used to say,
"The energy moveth my iron nail so it moveth my soul." Of course, for
cobblers, nails *keep* soles from moving and that's as basic as empiricism
gets.  

Yet I cannot but be comforted in a Moore common remark, "A final scientific
proof perforce obliges belief in an infinite number of cases turning out
precisely per prescription, yet a single counterexample just blows it all to
hell."

 
sh
* * * * * * * * * 



----- Original Message ----
From: Liz Wilhite <satirica at gmail_com>
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2006 4:18:36 PM
Subject: Re: [APD] Algae and Trace Elements


. . . 
Until such time as someone runs actual experiments, writes them up in a
journal article that includes proof of the mechanisms of causation, and
publishes the articles in appropriate peer-reviewed journals then all anyone
can talk about is coincidence rather than causation.  Anything less than
that is not authoritative no matter who says it unless it happens to be
written on stone tablets by a divinity.

-- 
Liz
_______________________________________________
Aquatic-Plants mailing list
Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 15:28:54 -0800
From: Vaughn Hopkins <hoppycalif at yahoo_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] Excel and Inverts
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

My cherry shrimp do fine in a tank that I occasionally dose with  
Excel, including a few consecutive days of 1.5X the water change  
dosage.  They continue to breed like....cherry shrimp.

Vaughn H.

On Dec 7, 2006, at 2:38 PM, Terry Barber wrote:

> Has anybody had any problems with shrimp in an excel dosed tank?     
> I need
> to move some of my shrimp, but want to use Excel as well.    Just  
> wanted to
> see if there's any experience out there.   Anybody had any problems  
> with red
> shrimp breeding in an Excel dosed tank.
>
> Thanks for helping out.
>
> TerryB
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aquatic-Plants mailing list
> Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 15:25:18 -0800 (PST)
From: "S. Hieber" <shieber at yahoo_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 40, Issue 9
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

Tell that to Bertand Russell's chicken. Everyday the sun comes up, the
farmer walks over, and voila, food is on the ground for the taking -- sun
comes up, farmer walks over, food, sun comes up, farmer walks over -- time
after time after time and then one morning the farmer's axe just fell.

sh
 
* * * * * * * * *



----- Original Message ----
From: Bill <Billinet at comcast_net>
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2006 6:11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [APD] Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 40, Issue 9


>>Until such time as someone runs actual experiments, writes them up in a
journal article that includes proof of the mechanisms of causation, and
publishes the articles in appropriate peer-reviewed journals then all anyone
can talk about is coincidence rather than causation.  Anything less than
that is not authoritative no matter who says it unless it happens to be
written on stone tablets by a divinity.>>

Well of course!  <g>

If I tell my neighbor that I found the trout to be feeding on green caddis
flies, that is just an observation and without scientific merit, but if he
then goes to the stream and fishes with green caddis flies, he is more
likely than not to be successful.

It would be interesting to know why the trout are more interested in green
caddis flies today, but not essential to the catching of them.  To the best
of my knowledge, nobody has published the reason for that preference, either
in peer-reviewed journals or fishing magazines. 

Truth is what works, eh?

Bill





_______________________________________________
Aquatic-Plants mailing list
Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:13:36 -1000
From: "Gary" <doji at hawaii_rr.com>
Subject: [APD] Plywood under tank?
To: <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

Instead of foam insulating door strips I use new 1/2" thick sponge carpet
pad for a full under tank fit.  This is over plywood.  On small tanks the
plywood isn't necessary, but it does prevent the pad from sagging into the
void below.  Used pieces are thrown out when a carpet is replaced but may
have pieces of grit or nails in it, so be careful.  There was a good amount
of fair sized trim left over when I had a new carpet installed, and I was
able to salvage scraps for a number of uses.  

I also use rigid insulation board made of an inert foam with a plastic/paper
cover under, behind, and on the ends of tanks (if the ends are not visible)
to conserve temperatures when the outside ambient temps are too hot or too
cold.  The rigid sheets come in thickness from 1/2" to 4" in sheets 2' x 4'
and larger at home repair stores.  .

The bottom rigid sheet is under small tanks (15 gallons or less), and under
the supporting plywood in the case of larger tanks, again for conserving
energy.  They also help to deaden sounds that may be emanating from
equipment in the under tank cabinet.

I did use only the 1/2" carpet pad under a 125 gallon tank that was on a
tiled kitchen counter to take out the irregularities in the tiles.  Worked
fine.

Gary

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:25:35 -1000
From: "Gary" <doji at hawaii_rr.com>
Subject: [APD] LED lights
To: <Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com>

Hello all,

Here is a site that offers some details and products on growing terrestrials
with LED lights.

Very pricey, though.  http://www.ledgrowlights.com/

Gary in Hilo, HI

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:57:10 -0800 (PST)
From: "S. Hieber" <shieber at yahoo_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] LED lights
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

Well, if you use white bulbs, I don't think they aren't going to save energy
compared to PCs, T5s, or MHs, so all the up front costs would have to be
made back in reduced bulb costs over the long term. 

sh
 
* * * * * * * * *



----- Original Message ----
From: Gary <doji at hawaii_rr.com>
To: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2006 7:25:35 PM
Subject: [APD] LED lights


Hello all,

Here is a site that offers some details and products on growing terrestrials
with LED lights.

Very pricey, though.  http://www.ledgrowlights.com/

Gary in Hilo, HI
_______________________________________________
Aquatic-Plants mailing list
Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 20:03:24 -0500
From: "Terry Barber" <terbarb at alltel_net>
Subject: Re: [APD] Excel and Inverts
To: "aquatic plants digest" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

Hi Vaughn and Liz,

Thanks for the info ....................  glad I can move them to my excel
tank!    Rudolph the red nosed shrimpy...........lalalalala

TerryB



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:28:36 -0800
From: "Liz Wilhite" <satirica at gmail_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 40, Issue 9
To: "aquatic plants digest" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

On 12/7/06, Bill <Billinet at comcast_net> wrote:

>
> If I tell my neighbor that I found the trout to be feeding on green caddis
> flies, that is just an observation and without scientific merit, but if he
> then goes to the stream and fishes with green caddis flies, he is more
> likely than not to be successful.


I dunno Bill, they hit on reds and browns here.  Of course, I haven't looked
in the husband's fly box and he *always* gets more strikes than I do!  :)

-- 
Liz


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:43:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Thomas Barr <tcbiii at yahoo_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] CO2 measurement
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com

Bill wrote about testing CO2

"But for just growing plants, I don't think one needs that
degree of
accuracy."

Okay, let's accept that to be true. 

Here's the problem, it might not be an issue personally for you,
but it is very much so for many folks less lucky than yourself.

I do not like luck personally, but will take it if it comes
along. Others are much less fortunate. 
I want to know what makes my tank succcessful so I can help
others.

If I base my advice on correlation and belief advice alone, I'd
never get too far. Folks all the time add too little CO2 based
on test and assumptions.

 Accuracy and improving a reduction in error from the test and
they are huge in many cases.............can reduce the amount of
headaches many folks have determining CO2.

I'm not sure how one can argue against this given the cost is
minor and the adaptation is simple/easy/cheap.

Can you do the cheap version of the drop checker to resolve such
issues? You bet.

So why ever bother with a pH probe at all then?
It's not so much the adaptation I've suggested, but going back
to why even bother with a pH probe at all ever?
You are taking the approach that it's no longeer really an issue
about adding a KH ref toa  pH probe, but you have issues with
the use of a pH meter/probe system to begin with.

"Need" is a very strong word also.....
 
That has nothing to do with the adaptation for a KH ref I've
suggested here for the pH probe.

The adaptation is a 10$ add on.
It requires little skill and addresses a major problems for many
folks with funky KH issues and those that use ADA AS etc and
want to know their CO2 levels and how those correlate with BBA,
good plant growth etc.

Many folks, maybe not you personally, have reported 210ppm of
CO2 based of the pH/KH charts and that was with accurate pH
probes.

If they followed the chart, they would only be adding really
3ppm of CO2, not the real values of about 30-35ppm.

Resolving such issues in a practical way is a creative art.
So the chart's assumptions and our own have led many to add
ittle CO2 and thus "caused" many infested BBA planted tanks and
pissed off aquarist.

This is a very weak argument against accuracy for the hobby, we
can say that no CO2 measurement nor nutrient measurement is
required nor temp etc.

I can do it by watching the plants.
But.......this does not mean __others__ can.
We need some base line other than "good plant growth".
Knowing why they grow allows you to figure out how to grow them
much better and with less work and assumptions.
It also allows me to help others and rule problems out. It also
helps the aquarist with the problems to rule them out as well.
Then they do not "need" to ask Tom Barr.
 
You may be able to, but for everyone to have a good degree of
confidence we are on the same page and able to reproduce things
and verify them, testing accuracy certainly helps a great deal.

I know what I know through accurate testing,
falsification/verification and isolating issues, not because I
am smart, have a green thumb or the plant fairy.

That testing allows me to see what is enough and what is
practical for folks, not everyone can and should eye ball CO2,
but most can eyeball dosing using EI.

If you use a drop checker, you will hit a ball park figure might
close, a pH KH ref probe, right on the money.

What that(EI) showed me is that folks have more issues with CO2,
than previously thought and much less with nutrients such as
excess Fe. Some using cheapo test kits also made assumptions
that caused issues, I knew this due to EI as well. Some micro
managing their nutrient levels and avoidign water changes also
had a lot of issues with CO2, that I knew from the past test
with managing nutrients levels. It's a lot of work and after all
that effort, folks still had BBA.

We bumped the CO2 up, and voila, the BBA stops growing.

Adding some KH ref and taking that out of the assumption is a
very useful approach at dealing with CO2 related issues for
newbies, seasoned vets, and researchers.

Do you even need to measure CO2 to use it and have a successful
tank? No, but I never said nor suggested that either.
This makes things easier and removes more assumptions in a
practical easy to use manner.

Sure, some can and do dose CO2 without ever using any test kit,
but it's not to be advised unless you are very careful, many
aquarist do not fall into that group. You might, but most do not
and have a lot of trouble understanding CO2 and how is figures
into the aquatic plant world.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com 
 





 
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Have a burning question?  
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Aquatic-Plants mailing list
Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants


End of Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 40, Issue 10
**********************************************


_______________________________________________
Aquatic-Plants mailing list
Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants