Re: [APD] RE: nitrogen

[Dmitri Priimak <priimak at stanford_edu>]

Thomas Barr wrote:
>>Still, my aquarium developed green
>>water at which point my tests for NO2 and NO3 showed absolutely zero as
>>far as I can tell. It is my understanding that the plants as well as
>>algae (am I right about algae eating nitrogen?) ate all nitrogen.
>
>
> Not the NH4.
> Something caused a back up of the NH4 uptake.

Ok. I assumed mistakenly that nitrogen would only be present in a water
column in the form of NH3, NO2 and NO3.

> Lots of well growing plants
> will remove all of it, but if the tank is new and you add a lot of
> fish etc, and feed them(not algae) fish food etc, this can happen.
> If the plants are severely N limited, then the plants will stop
> growing even if there's some NH4 around.
> It's plenty for the algae(NH4 and only a small amount is needed) but
> not enough total N for the plants.

Does it mean that plans would consume NO3, NH3 and NH4 but the rate of
consumption of NO3 is higher then for NH3/4?

> There's NO3 and NH4 that make up what algae and plants use.
> They will both like NH4 and this can cause some algae(Green water, GW)
> to bloom if there's enough NH4.
> NO3 even at high levels does not induce a bloom so we can add this
> without any algae blooms.
> Add NH4 and you'll get an algae bloom.

Does this mean that algae (green water one) prefers (consumes faster) 
NH4 or it takes in only NH4 and alike, not NO3? The reason for my 
question is that you want to maintain NO3 slightly above zero, so as not 
to starve higher plants, isn't?

>
> Generally, moderate fish loads provide enough NH4 without producing
> a bloom and we top off the rest with KNO3.

Pardon my ignorance, but where ( or from which product ) does KNO3 comes 
from? For example potassium supplement by Seachem claim to contain 
soluble K20.

> In a new tank, the bacteria have not established yet nor have the
> plants, adding NH4/fish waste will often produce a GW bloom.
>
> There is a very simple way to start your tank off that prevents all of
> this.
> Add mulm
> Add peat
> Add flourite or onyx sand etc(3-4'')
> Mulm is the "dirt" that settles in the bottom of water change bucket
> after
> deep vaccuuming the gravel of an established tank(FW, does not have to
> be planted)
> This is added along with a light dusting of ground peat to the bottom
> and then the flourite is added on top of this.
>
> This adds precisely what is missing from an established tank's gravel
> and filter. Add a little mulm to the filter also. You can use the dirt
> from a sponge filter etc as well for "mulm".
>
> This method should be memorized by everyone that plans on setting up
> a new plant tank(or any tank). You can build upon it if you so chose
> as you advance, I've never found any better results in doing so and
> this is not surprising.

So, basically you are advocating implanting new tank with bacterial 
culture from established aquarium. Still, I don't exactly understand 
which bacteria eats NH4 and how does it fit in the nitrogen cycle. 
Perhaps then, someone could point me to a more developed nitrogen cycle 
diagram than simple
NH3 -(bacteria)-> NO2 -(bacteria)-> NO3 -(consumed by plant)-> plant 
-(fish eat plant)-> NH3

>>I also have about 5 watts per gallon of light and do CO2 fertilization
>>with the yeast bottle. According to pH and dKH graphs I easily bring
>>CO2 to 20-30 ppm. My KH right now is 4dKH.
>
> As logn as you can amaitain that during the day peroid and not let it
> drop off later in the week etc between brew changes in the CO2, your
> are fine. If not, then you will get algae.

Why? How will this affect level of NH3/4 if I have very little fish in it?

> If you ever have an issue, check CO2 three times before looking at 
fert's.
>
> By the way condition of my amazon
>
>>swords with few yellowish spots, which are getting bigger indicate, I
>>believe, luck of nitrogen. As you can guess I am trying to get rid of
>>green water. I am trying to do it without radical methods, like
>>chemical treatment, diatom filtration and alike, and do it by changing
>>nutrient content in the water and substrate.
>
> Hahahaha, no you won't.
> Talk to me in 1 month and see how far you have come.
>
> UV, mechanical removal are the best methods, Blackout likely will not
> work at 5w/gal + DIY CO2, Daphnia(but the fish will eat these) will
> also. The good news is, you can screw with this alga for a long time
> and it does not harm the plants, just an eye sore and prevents
> viewing. Hagen quik filters are 5 microns and this is fine enough to
> remove it.

However, I've seen plenty of tanks which did not seem to have UV or 
diatom filters and yet had crystal clear water.

>>    Thus I'd like to supply additional nitrogen to a higher plants
>>only, which means adding something to a substrate.
>
> No, this method does not work. The algae are not limited while you are
> able to supply the nutrients to the plants.

But wouldn't stimulating higher order plants help them to consume more 
NH3/4 and thus make it a limiting factor in algae grows?

[snip]

> It works, till you uproot, then you get green water. I found out what
> causes GW a long time ago using Jobes actually:)
> I looked at the contents and went down one by one till I got to Urea
> and NH4. If it has NH4/Urea, do not use it.

Ok. Do you know by chance what is exactly in Seachem Flourish Nitrogen?
They do mention that it is derived from urea, but claim on the same page 
that "no free ammonia is released because the ammonium in Flourish 
Nitrogen? is complexed and unavailable until utilized by the plants.".

[snip]

> You can see the Nitrogen article in TAG I wrote.

Could you elaborate on location of your article?

--
Dmitri Priimak

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