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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: theory behind algae control (Steve Pushak)
>    2. Re: theory behind algae control (Roger Miller)
>    3. Re: theory behind algae control (Andrew
> McLeod)
>    4. RE: RO Units and carbon filtration (Douglas
> Guynn)
>    5. Cork tiles bark use and availability in
> Australia. (Damian Barton)
>    6. plant wholesalers wanted (Scott)
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 03:38:45 -0700
> From: "Steve Pushak" <teban at powersonic_bc.ca>
> Subject: [APD] Re: theory behind algae control
> To: <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
> 
> The notion that providing nutrients in abundance to
> encourage macrophyte
> growth has some validity but we need to remember
> that "algae" can arise
> under many different circumstances. Green water
> flourishes for example,
> when ammonia is present in the water & there are
> sufficient other
> nutrients available & light is abundant. Macrophytes
> are better able to
> utilize nitrogen in nitrate form than unicellular
> algae so using nitrate
> instead of ammonia greatly reduces green water, in
> my experience &
> according to others.
> 
> The cause for blue-green algae, or cyanobacteria,
> seems to be an
> abundance of dissolved organic phosphates & perhaps
> other dissolved
> organic nutrients together with moderate to high
> lighting. Adding
> mineral nitrogen or phosphate does not seem to
> rectify this problem.
> Reducing the light intensity to low greatly reduces
> BGA as does removing
> the sources of organic nutrients (the fish & their
> food). I'm speaking
> from my own experiences here taking into
> consideration how Tom has
> explained BGA. I stress that these are empirical
> observations based upon
> what I've done so far to resolve my own problems
> with BGA in a couple of
> tanks. In one, I eliminated sunlight entering a tank
> & in my other, I
> removed the pair of Bettas which needed to be fed a
> high protein diet. A
> short period of blackout seems to have eliminated
> the remnants of BGA;
> once you have it you need to remove the cause,
> remove as much BGA as you
> can & kill off the rest.
> 
> The third broad category of algae is filament algae
> which you can
> further divide into epiphytic algae (attached) &
> thread algae (for lack
> of a better term, non-epiphytic?). As Tom has said,
> epiphytic algae does
> seem not to attach to actively growing plants new
> leaves. I can't give a
> compelling explanation other than to suggest that
> when things are
> growing well, and dissolved organic nutrients are
> low, perhaps epiphytic
> algae does not go into its reproductive stage where
> it has mobile bits
> that float around & reattach to new surfaces. I
> suspect that a healthy
> leaf also has some type of defence adaptation (a
> smooth surface?) that
> makes it difficult for epiphytic algae to attach to.
> A damaged or old
> leaf will always collect epiphytic algae. If you
> just remove any leaves
> with epiphytic algae, it seems to be able to cure
> the problem. I suspect
> that the algae is not really gone, but can easily
> reoccur if an
> imbalance of nutrients tips the scales in favour of
> reproduction of that
> type of algae. This is related to the "stability"
> explanation given by
> Roger & Tom.
> 
> In my experience, non-epiphytic thread algae can
> flourish under any
> circumstances where macrophytes can flourish. The
> competition
> explanation might work here if you consider
> competition for light. A
> tank of flourishing plants can quickly fill a tank
> very completely. The
> filament algae at the bottom of the tank gets much
> less light & stops
> growing as quickly. If the light level gets low
> enough, I suspect it
> might die off after several weeks. Any filament
> algae which is growing
> near the surface will continue to flourish. It tends
> to grow into a big
> blob so what I do is pick it out with my fingers. I
> try to also remove
> any fine leaved plants which have the filament algae
> trapped in the
> leaves. If you do this religiously, sometimes you
> can get the filament
> algae under control. A strategy of also reducing
> phosphates in the water
> by encouraging macrophyte growth to take up those
> phosphates seems to
> help a little. Again, I don't think the algae ever
> goes away; its still
> present somewhere in the tank & ready to reoccur
> when an excess of
> nutrients occurs; the algae is opportunistic & grows
> faster than the
> macrophytes during periods of abundant nutrients.
> 
> You can't really help having BGA or green water in a
> tank because these
> algae are so easily introduced by spores however, I
> firmly believe (you
> need a certain amount of faith), that you can avoid
> filament algae if
> you follow scrupulous quarantine & disinfectant
> procedures using bleach
> to decontaminate new plants & quarantining fish for
> a couple of weeks in
> a dark tank before introduction to planted tank.
> Once you have an
> filament algae infected tank, its difficult to avoid
> cross-contamination. Its also difficult to bleach
> sterilize fine leaved
> plants unless you have the luxury of sterile & clean
> tanks that have
> room & plenty of nutrients, light & CO2 ready to
> help the sterilized
> specimens recover from their bleach trauma. Floating
> the sterilized
> specimens seems to be the best approach until they
> are recovered enough
> & large enough to plant.
> 
> I've also said that I think you will have a lot
> fewer problems with
> algae of all kinds if you reduce the lighting levels
> to about half of
> the "recommended" 2-3 wpg intensity. With good
> reflectors, I think you
> can get by with about 1 wpg, and keep most
> macrophytes growing slowly.
> You probably can't achieve the really high leaf area
> ratios as you can
> in a strongly lit tank but you don't need really
> dense plant growth to
> have an aesthetic tank, provided that you aren't
> loosing the lower
> leaves on stem plants due to over shading. So a tank
> with primarily
> crown plants (Anubias, Crypts, Swords) can flourish
> in a low light tank
> more easily than a tank with a dense stand of Rotala
> macrandra.
> 
> It is an excellent question; we need to move beyond
> anthropomorphic
> explanations. In my mind, there is always a
> competition factor. Growth
> of an algae species will occur unless something it
> needs is not present.
> Think about light competition in a succession
> environment where one
> species out-grows another.
> 
> Steve P in Vancouver
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 06:49:15 -0600
> From: Roger Miller <roger at spinn_net>
> Subject: [APD] Re: theory behind algae control
> To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
> 
> 
> Roeland wrote:
> 
> > But to come back to the original question: the
> idea would be, like Roger
> > Miller says, to select a window of conditions.
> Unther those conditions
> > plants are better competitors than algae. 
> 
> To be perfectly clear about this, I don't think that
> competition -- 
> particularly for nutrients -- has any impact on
> algae control.
> 
> As you pointed out, our common nutrient levels are
> so high as to make 
> competition irrelevant.  It is common for aquarium
> water to have CO2 
> concentrations, phosphate concentrations and
> sometimes potassium 
> concentrations 2 or 3 orders of magnitude higher
> than normal for natural 
> water.  We usually maintain all other nutrients at
> comfortably high levels.  
> There is no possibility of competition when the
> table is so lavishly set.
> 
> The "window" of conditions is set primarily by the
> match between the 
> conditions provided in an aquarium and the
> conditions that algae are 
> specialized for.  A planktonic species that is
> adapted to grow under low-CO2 
> conditions and to live under alternately very bright
> and moderately dark 
> conditions as it circulates in the water column may
> simply fail to survive if 
> placed in aquarium conditions with high CO2 and
> continual 2-3 watts/gallon of 
> lighting.  It has nothing to do with competition; it
> just isn't the 
> environment that the algae is "designed" for.
> 
> 
> Roger Miller
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:39:20 +0100
> From: Andrew McLeod
> <thefish at theabyssalplain_freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: [APD] Re: theory behind algae control
> To: aquatic plants digest
> <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
> 
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 06:49:15 -0600, Roger Miller
> <roger at spinn_net> wrote:
> >
> > Roeland wrote:
> >
> >> But to come back to the original question: the
> idea would be, like Roger
> >> Miller says, to select a window of conditions.
> Unther those conditions
> >> plants are better competitors than algae.
> >
> > To be perfectly clear about this, I don't think
> that competition --
> > particularly for nutrients -- has any impact on
> algae control.
> >
> > As you pointed out, our common nutrient levels are
> so high as to make
> > competition irrelevant.  It is common for aquarium
> water to have CO2
> > concentrations, phosphate concentrations and
> sometimes potassium
> > concentrations 2 or 3 orders of magnitude higher
> than normal for natural
> > water.  We usually maintain all other nutrients at
> comfortably high 
> > levels.
> > There is no possibility of competition when the
> table is so lavishly set.
> 
> What about NH4? Does anybody have measurements of
> NH4 levels in aquaria?
> 
> -- 
> Andrew McLeod
> thefish at theabyssalplain_freeserve.co.uk
> 
> This email was scanned carefully before transmission
> to remove any 
> content, information or relevance.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:48:37 -0500
> From: "Douglas Guynn" <d_guynn at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: [APD] RE: RO Units and carbon filtration
> To: <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
> 
> Wright Huntley wrote:
> 
>   "... the RO unit has essentially no ability to
> block small molecules, like
> ammonium and chlorine."
> 
> I don't believe the above statement is correct.
> Given the correct conditions
> of high pressure, correct temperature and pH, and
> fairly low TDS of the
> supply water, and RO unit can remove everything but
> the wet from water. Each
> of these parameters has a direct effect on both the
> quantity and quality of
> the product water. A RO unit operated under optimum
> conditions can filter
> out almost everything in the water supply.
> 
> There are two types of membranes commonly in use
> today, Thin Film Composite
> (a synthetic), and Cellulose TriAcetate (organic in
> nature). Carbon filters
> are required on RO units with TFC membranes because
> the chlorine (and maybe
> some other substances as well) will degrade the
> membrane. On the other hand,
> those with CTA membranes require exposure to low
> concentration of chlorine
> or some other disinfectant to prevent the growth of
> bacteria that foul the
> membrane. TFC is generally preferred over CTA due to
> its longevity and
> performance.
> 
> For those of us concerned about the quantity of
> waste water generated by RO
> units, a two stage system can be employed. The
> product from the first
> membrane is fed into the second membrane. The reject
> water from the second
> membrane is pumped back to the inlet of the first
> membrane. Some systems use
> three membranes, two as first stage and one as
> second. This configuration
> yields very high flow rates and exceptional water
> quality. I have operated a
> RO unit using this design that made 35,000 gallons
> of 5 mmoh RO water daily
> for use in a boiler feedwater system. Of course,
> that unit would not fit
> under the kitchen sink. That unit would not even fit
> in my kitchen. The
> membrane cases were each 20 feet long and 10-inches
> in diameter. The reject
> water was not wasted, but was used in the plant's
> cooling tower.
> 
>   Douglas Guynn, in West Texas, where drinkable
> water is a valued commodity,
> and every drop of rain is a precious gift from God.
> 
> Douglas Guynn
>         432.368.5411
>         d.guynn at sbcglobal.net
> 
> Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will
> enter the kingdom of heaven;
> but he who does the will of My Father who is in
> heaven. Matt 7:21
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 00:14:54 +1000
> From: Damian Barton <daemondamian at ozemail_com.au>
> Subject: [APD] Cork tiles bark use and availability
> in Australia.
> To: Aquatic-Plants <Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com>
> 
>   I'm sure natural sheets of cork look better, but
> in my tanks with the 
> cheap bulletin-board style cork composites the java
> ferns and anubias 
> cover them so happily that I don't see the cork.
> 
> The only problem I've noticed with using them in
> tank backgrounds is 
> that they tend to crumble a lot when my goldfish
> bang around the plants 
> pinned to them--and they aren't so attactive when
> the same process makes 
> bare spots. In tanks with peaceable fish, they seem
> to be fine. Healthy 
> plants, healthy fish.
> Diane Brown in St. Louis
> 
> Hi Diane
> I know what you mean, my mum bought me almost paper
> thin
> cork roll once  (I didn't bother at the time to
> wonder if it might be 
> safe or not)
> and siliconed it onto the lower half of the back of
> a 2ft tank (with pebbles
> above it). The problem was I also had 5 or so
> bristlenose catfish in there,
> they did have wood but rasped away -if I remember
> right- all of it! :O\
> 
> This time though I want thick corkboard  because of
> the ease of using U 
> shaped bits
> of wire to fasten plants on to it.
> of wire
> 
>  
> 
> Damian,
> I've used the 1 foot square cork tiles from the
> hardware store
> in my tank with no problems.
> 
> I'm not sure if you used a brand with a similar
> manufacturing process
> but I actually received a response from the company
> as follows:
> 
> Dear Damian, MJO cork tiles are very low emission in
> terms of VOC discharge
> (volitile organic compounds) they meet or exceed E1
> standard and are sold in
> the most emission sensitive market in the world,
> Germany.
>     However there is to my knowledge no in water
> testing. Be aware that as a
> wood product, some swelling will occur when exposed
> to water, and i would
> expect that emmision will bevery low or next to
> nothing initially, and may
> increase as submerssion continues, Regards, Kendall
> Waller
> 
> 
> What that means exactly I don't know! :O)
>  
> I used black Aquarium silicon to glue the tiles onto
> several 1
> foot wide acrylic boards, leaving the bottom couple
> of inches
> bare. After the acrylic cured, I pushed the bare
> part of the boards
> into the gravel at the back of the tank and pushed
> the boards back
> against the back wall. The cork makes the acrylic
> float up to wedge
> under the back lip of the tank to hold it in place.
> 
> I think I will silicone it straight onto the back
> glass- acrylic around
> where I am is super expensive.
> 
> The tiles I used where the dark brown, slightly
> smoky smelling
> tiles. I stapled anubias and java fern into the
> cork.
> 
> Yeah they had light and dark ones and the darker are
> way nicer
> more natural looking. You didn't have a problem with
> the stapler
> cutting through the rhizomes?
> 
>  Its been in place for over a year now with no
> problems. The staples have
> rusted away, but the plants have attached themselves
> by now.
> 
> Here are links to before and immediately after
> shots.
> 
> 
> http://enduse.lbl.gov/SharedData/MJPinckard/tank.jpg
>
http://enduse.lbl.gov/SharedData/MJPinckard/tank2.jpg
> Maggie
> 
> That's quite a beautiful tank you have there. I'm
> guessing anubias, those
> special algae balls (cladaphoria? marino?), java
> fern and possibly
> vallisneria and swords but you also have gold fish
> in there- what 
> temperature
> do you keep it at?
> 
> Just wondering as I have a 2ft tank outside with
> anubias, echindorus 
> compacta,
> crypts, an aponogeton and and angel and I'm thinking
> about removing the
> angel and turning into a cold water tank with white
> cloud minnows
> or something but I'm not sure about the plants
> handling the temperature.
> 
> 
> Natural cork is available in Australia from orchid
> vendors.
> I have several pieces that look same as on the the
> web site just posted.
> Ray Clement has it listed here:
> http://www.tinoneeorchids.com/accessories.html
> CORK
> Virgin Cork Slabs (random sizes) $18.00/kg
> Cork Guide: 1m2 surface area = approx. 2½kg
> 
> Thankyou Rob!!! I've done numerous google searches
> in Australia and could never find anything.
> 
> The bits I have for my rochids look very nice.
> I  just took a few shots of one that I am not using
> at the moment.
> http://www.sarcanthinae.com/Cork
> 
> If you want to inspect before you purchase I am sure
> Ray may be able to help
> find a palce close by.
> Rob - Sydney
> 
> Scott,
> thanks for the links and advice. The cork bark beats
> those 'aquarium 
> backgrounds on a roll'
> any day.
> 
> Damian.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:53:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Scott <zerelli at yahoo_com>
> Subject: [APD] plant wholesalers wanted
> To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
> 
> If anyone can tell me where to find a good wholesale
> source for plants, please contact me off list. 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 	
> 		
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> End of Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 8, Issue 51
> *********************************************



	
		
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