[APD] Re: Tadpoles

["Gail Bowker" <bowks at bigfoot_com.au>]

Has anyone on this list used tadpoles for algae control?

I had a problem with my 55g tank a couple of weeks ago - a complete melt
down.  While waiting for a chiller to arrive I had switched off the lights
to keep the heat down in the tank, and someone in the house, removed the
plug of my filter.  With no lights I didn't notice 'till everything was
dead.  Shrimps, fish and even 90% of the plants.  Then, in cleaning up the
tank I obviously released a lot of iron (laterite) into the water resulting
in the most amazing, but disheartening algae growth.  Long brown thread
algae, green fluffy algae, mulm all over the bottom of the tank, green
surface water, brown patches on the sides of the tank.   Everything was
brown and the new plants looked very unhealthy.

After a couple of water changes I had a bright idea of throwing in about 20
med sized tadpoles.  Within 2 days the green surface ater had gone,  much of
the thread algae had disappeared, 2 days later I was beginning to see
patches of white sand.  1 week later no brown algae, even the fluffy green
stuff on the logs is thinning out, and everything is crystal clear.  Plus
the tadpoles are loving it.  As soon as they grow their 4 legs and lose
their tails I'll transfer them into the pond out the back.  Maybe I won't
even have to wait that long.   I'm surprised.  I use CO2, traces, and ferts
too, but they are very healthy.

Gail


----- Original Message -----
From: <aquatic-plants-request at actwin_com>
To: <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 2:55 PM
Subject: Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 4, Issue 91


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Looking for Eusteralis stellata (Arturo Giacosa)
>    2. RE: Tom's Nutrient Recommendations....The first week ends,
>       interesting results! (Vic Di Cosola)
>    3. Chemistry Questions (Ed Dumas)
>    4. Re: Chemistry Questions (Rex Grigg)
>    5. Shrimp and KCL (reply) (Joe Anderson)
>    6. Re: The why of the Barr method (Tony Eales)
>    7. RE: Why algae don't grow and the plants do (Thomas Barr)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:27:51 -0500
> From: "Arturo Giacosa" <agiacosa at msn_com>
> Subject: [APD] Looking for Eusteralis stellata
> To: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
>
> Hi,
>
> I need to get some Eusteralis stellata for this Saturday.  Can anyone
point
> me to a source?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Art Giacosa
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work -  and
> yourself.   http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:36:58 -0800
> From: "Vic Di Cosola" <clutch24 at adelphia_net>
> Subject: [APD] RE: Tom's Nutrient Recommendations....The first week
> ends, interesting results!
> To: <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
>
> Hello all,
>
> Tomorrow will be the weeks end of me dry dosing my 55 gal
Glosso/Val/Riccia
> tank with dry ferts for the FIRST time.  Interesting enough when I tested
my
> tap water I had virtually nothing to speak of in regards to Nitrate and
> Phosphate levels from my tap or for that matter in my tank via LaMotte
test
> kits.  As you might recall from my earlier posts, I have a 55 gal Glosso
> tank with a HUGE deep carpet of Glosso, riccia on my driftwood and
Corkscrew
> Vals surrounding the back corner wall.  pH of 6.7 to 6.8 with C02 of
course
> and lots of it dosed through my PinPoint Controller ;)  Lighting finally
> downgraded from 284w (thanks Tom) to 150w for my 24" deep tank.
>
> I purchased a pound each of KNO3, KSO4 and KH2PO4 and Tropica MG for
Trace.
> I had NO algae to speak of since I rid myself of some early algae boom of
> cloudy water with a UV light 2 weeks earlier due to too much light and
lack
> of nutrients. I was just adding trace.  (Been out of the hobby for 4 years
> so I was researching! ;)  Anyway, did a 50% water change (approx. 20 gal
> worth) and added a 1/4tsp of KNO3, KS04, .1gram of KH2PO4 and 5ml of MG.
I
> waited approx. 15 minutes and tested the water where I found approx. 3ppm
of
> Nitrates and approx. .004 of Phosphate.  Today (the 6th day into this) I
> have dosed twice this week with 1/4 tsp of KN03, .1 grams of KH2P04 and
5ml
> of MG. I retested my water today and have some interesting results.  My
> Nitrates are now 2ppm and my phosphate had SLIGHT color below the .005
> (lowest color reading on the LaMotte. I'm guessing .002 or so is what I
was
> reading.
>
> Conclusions? To me, it looks like my plants are eating the hell outta the
> nutrients I'm adding??
> I know I'm trying to shoot for 5ppm for my Nitrates at the end of the
week.
> I'm also trying to keep this as SIMPLE as possible so I think I'm going to
> take the "wait and see" approach and dose the same next week or do I bump
up
> the KN03 to 1/2 tsp 3x a week ,.15 of the KH2P04 3x a week and 1/2 tsp
once
> a week for the KS04.??  My vals are the ONLY plant that seem to lack, tips
> are growing clear and some yellowing. ONLY had these vals for approx 2.5
> weeks, and they are spreading shoots already, BUT I do see some
> discoloration (maybe some tank shock.)  The Glosso is OUT of SIGHT  (WOW)
> while the Riccia seems to be doing VERY well thus far.  It's an
interesting
> and fun time for me again with my planted aquaria!  Thanks all!
>
> Take care,
>
> Victor Di Cosola
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:45:34 -0800
> From: Ed Dumas <eldumas at telus_net>
> Subject: [APD] Chemistry Questions
> To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am coming out of lurking mode for a while, during Christmas break and
> such, and I have a some chemistry questions for someone out there who
> specializes in this sort of thing. The tap water in my area is virtually
> zero in general hardness and carbonate hardness, and I find I must add a
> few things to help plants grow. I add MgSO4 and CaCl (1 to 4) to
> increase the Gh, and I add K2CO3 (Potassium Carbonate) to increase the
> carbonate hardness.
>
> I would like to increase the amount of calcium in the water for my
> snails, as I find that their shells are in need of more. The amount of
> calcium from the CaCl doesn't seem to be enough for them. I have added
> Calcium Nitrate, but that tends to increase the nitrates more than I
> would like. Consequently I am looking for other sources of calcium for
> the snails.
>
> What do the chemists out there think of substituting Calcium Carbonate,
> instead of Potassium Carbonate to increase the carbonate hardness? Or,
> what do the chemists out there think of substituting Calcium Sulphate
> instead of Calcium Nitrate to add calcium? Is there a risk/limit to
> adding sulphates to the water.
>
> Finally, when I was in a hydroponics store today to ask information on
> what was available, I came across a product called Cal-Ox, which seems
> to be some combination of Calcium and Oxygen. Does anyone know what the
> specific chemical makeup of this item might be, and is it safe to add to
> an aquarium as a source of calcium?
>
> Thanks for any and all help.
>
> Ed Dumas
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 19:34:04 -0800
> From: Rex Grigg <rex at dsl-only_net>
> Subject: Re: [APD] Chemistry Questions
> To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
>
> At 06:45 PM 12/22/2003, you wrote:
>
> I too live in an area where the tap water is virtually without hardness.
I
> use Epsom salts, calcium carbonate (which raises both gH and kH) and a bit
> of baking soda.  As I recall 2 teaspoons of calcium carbonate will raise
> the gH and kH in 50 liters of water 4 degrees
>
> >Hello all,
> >
> >I am coming out of lurking mode for a while, during Christmas break and
> >such, and I have a some chemistry questions for someone out there who
> >specializes in this sort of thing. The tap water in my area is virtually
> >zero in general hardness and carbonate hardness, and I find I must add a
> >few things to help plants grow. I add MgSO4 and CaCl (1 to 4) to increase
> >the Gh, and I add K2CO3 (Potassium Carbonate) to increase the carbonate
> >hardness.
> >
> >I would like to increase the amount of calcium in the water for my
snails,
> >as I find that their shells are in need of more. The amount of calcium
> >from the CaCl doesn't seem to be enough for them. I have added Calcium
> >Nitrate, but that tends to increase the nitrates more than I would like.
> >Consequently I am looking for other sources of calcium for the snails.
> >
> >What do the chemists out there think of substituting Calcium Carbonate,
> >instead of Potassium Carbonate to increase the carbonate hardness? Or,
> >what do the chemists out there think of substituting Calcium Sulphate
> >instead of Calcium Nitrate to add calcium? Is there a risk/limit to
adding
> >sulphates to the water.
> >
> >Finally, when I was in a hydroponics store today to ask information on
> >what was available, I came across a product called Cal-Ox, which seems to
> >be some combination of Calcium and Oxygen. Does anyone know what the
> >specific chemical makeup of this item might be, and is it safe to add to
> >an aquarium as a source of calcium?
> >
> >Thanks for any and all help.
> >
> >Ed Dumas
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Aquatic-Plants mailing list
> >Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
> >http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/aquatic-plants
>
> In Heaven We were formed...
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> United States Marine Corps
>
> Semper Fi  From tcbiii at earthlink_net Mon Dec 22 23:53:12 2003
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> From: "Thomas Barr" <tcbiii at earthlink_net>
> To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:53:14 -0500
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> Subject: [APD] RE: allelopathy
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>
> > I tend to think allelopathy is the most likely explanation as well.
>
> I don't, neither do most Aquatic Botanist.
> Considering the review editor of the journal Aquatic Botany is one of my
> professors, and two other professors are on the board, naw...
> I'd say bark up another tree, I've already discussed what I've seen and
> what they think.
>
> > My personal theory is that plants, when provided everything they want in
> > abundance, greatly ramp up the production of allelopathic compounds.
They
> > create such a flood of such compounds that they are effective even with
> 50%
> > water changes.
>
> But we simply do not see this in the aquatic enviorment.
> If we concentrate the plant or algae chemicals that seem like likely
> candidates and treat algae with these, sure, this will reduce some algae
> okay.
> But in the tank or in nature, there's not enough to even come close to
> making any effect.
> Nor are concentrated pulps anything like real world situations.
>
> Some good examples are with grass land type plants, eg Bromus sp etc,
drier
> climates etc.
> But nothing short of subtle at best has been found in FW systems.
> The main competition that plants have over algae in FW: light.
>
> > This would explain why in a less-successful tank you can see concurrent
> > plant growth and algae growth. The plants aren't able to produce enough
> > allelopathic compounds to stop the algae. Once you ramp up the plant
> > nutrients, they flood the water with algaecide and that's the end of
that.
>
> But all you have to do to test this theory: add carbon which will remove
> the alleopathioc chemicals quite handily.
> This is what they use in terrestrial studies as well to remove certain
> regions around roots etc for controls some time or other test where they
> want to remove the allelopathic chemical of interest.
>
> Also, few plants actually produce these, othet these, why do we see almost
> every plant when grown well, is able to illict the SAME EFFECT???????
> All, 200 species of plants produce this same or similar chemical?
> Even plants that normally live away from water in lotic systems(flowing
> streams/rivers etc)?
> What good is all that chemical then?
> Huge expense, little gain.
>
> > It also explains why the Walstad method works over the long term. The
> > plants aren't producing the allelopathic compounds nearly as fast, but
> they
> > have much more time to accumulate because of the lack of water changes.
>
> I don't think that's why it works.
> I think it's simply stepped down, the rate is slow enough where the plants
> and the fish are able to supply the needed balance to promote good plant
> growth.
>
> > I'd love to hear other explanations, but this is the only reason I can
> come
> > up with for why algae fail among an abundance of nutrients.
> >
> > - Jim Seidman
>
> I think algae are preprogramed to live in specific environments, plants as
> well but if they have enough nutrients relative to the lighting, they will
> do well if you have enough plants to start off with.
> I also believe that algae/plants compete fiercly for NH4 produced in the
> water column.
> It's a much greater gain for algae to get the NH4 as opposed to NO3.
> Plants also but not nearly as much.
> When the plants have good conditions, they likely remove all the NH4 as
> fast as it's produced.
> When the plants wane due to nutrient deficicencies, this uptake rate slows
> down and the algae have a free meal.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Barr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 05:09:29 +0000
> From: "Joe Anderson" <the_submariner at hotmail_com>
> Subject: [APD] Shrimp and KCL (reply)
> To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
>
> Jim,
> I never really resolved "scientifically" whehter or not KCL (potash)
> actually was the culprit or if some "contaminant" was...
> All i did was add it to a tank that had been suffering shrimp losses for a
> while.. (after which i had stopped using it for about 3 wks) there was ONE
> remaining caridina japonica left in the 55 w/ many other healthy fish...
> I figured the only way to be certain (in a very common sense sort of way)
> was to go ahead and add teh potash again ..
> sure enough, the next day the shrimp was dead
>
> give it a shot if you'd like.. but i'd try to find some other manner of
> potassium supplementation if you are going to want to keep fw shrimp (esp
if
> you're paying good $ for them)
>
> just my nickles worth
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> Longest Running Aquarium Club in Oklahoma - Since 1949!
> Oklahoma City Aquarium Association
> http://petsforum.com/okcaa/
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OK-AquariumAssociation/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:57:19 -0600
> From: "Jim Seidman" <js5 at seidman_net>
> Subject: [APD] KCl and shrimp
> To: <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
>
> Looking through the archives, there are a number of discussions of the use
> of KCl versus K2SO4. About the only reason to not use KCl was that some
> people claimed to have mysterious shrimp deaths with KCl. This was
> controversial, and no one seemed to understand the cause. Some thought
> there might be contaminants in the KCl. It doesn't appear the issue was
> ever resolved.
>
> KCl is super cheap. I saw it at Home Depot this weekend at $6.40 for a
> 40-lb bag, and would love to use it. Does anyone have any new insights on
> the mysterious shrimp death controversy?
>
> - Jim Seidman
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 15:14:07 +1000
> From: Tony Eales <s328962 at student_uq.edu.au>
> Subject: [APD] Re: The why of the Barr method
> To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
>
> Jeff Ludwig wrote in part
>  >Okay, so within the Barr framework, what do I do about attached algae?
Do
>  >these melt away also? What about BBA in the substrate/on driftwood (this
is
>  >a huge problem among even the most seasoned growers)? Why can't we
isolate
>  >this chemical, bottle it and make millions? The market for a chemical
like
>  >this is enormous (almost all of it outside of the aquarium industry).
Same
>  >comments apply to Jim's reply, if these chemicals existed they would be
>  >commercially available already and this would not be an academic
pursuit. :)
>  >Okay, so within the Barr framework, what do I do about attached algae?
Do
>  >these melt away also? What about BBA in the substrate/on driftwood (this
is
>  >a huge problem among even the most seasoned growers)? Why can't we
isolate
>  >this chemical, bottle it and make millions? The market for a chemical
like
>  >this is enormous (almost all of it outside of the aquarium industry).
Same
>  >comments apply to Jim's reply, if these chemicals existed they would be
>  >commercially available already and this would not be an academic
pursuit. :)
>
> OK firstly I don't think chemical warfare is the only thing gong on. The
> high levels of dissolved oxygen  goes a long way toward getting rid of
> algae attached to things that can't fight back. BBA seems especially
> susceptible to this effect. A big thick stand won't just disappear but
> I  have noticed if I get things pearling away nicely the SAEs will attack
> the weakened stand of BBA and mow it down. Green water is probably
> similarly adversely affected by high O2 levels.
> Secondly although I didn't state it clearly I doubt that the plants'
> resistance to attached algae is through just pumping out toxins. Just
> pumping out algacides would be an extremely wasteful response for a water
> plant. I would guess it is something much more short range like responses
> in the plants cell wall when an algae spore tries to attach. Terrestrial
> plants can respond to insect or fungal attack by such methods as forming
> galls around affected parts or producing toxins in localised areas. I
would
> be very surprised if aquatic plants hadn't evolved some sort of defense
> response to attached algae. In short I doubt that there is one single
thing
> going on but the environment produced when plants are healthy and growing
> does seem to suppress algae and it sure isn't about competition for
limited
> nutrients or light.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 00:24:00 -0500
> From: "Thomas Barr" <tcbiii at earthlink_net>
> Subject: [APD] RE: Why algae don't grow and the plants do
> To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
>
>
> > I'm going to pick apart a few comments so far, I'm challenging views to
> > provoke discussion, not to be a jerk, so sorry if my comments seem a
> little
> > rough, it'll be good for all of us in the end... :)
>
> Rougher the better, as long as they are about plants.
>
> > Okay, so within the Barr framework,
>
> ?Barr framework? hehe. You peoples.
>
> > what do I do about attached algae?  Do
> > these melt away also?
>
> I hack the little suckers off at their basal stalks.
> It's the new growth that bothers me.
> Those are the ones I want to take out. You stop the the new growth, you
> stop the algae.
>
>   What about BBA in the substrate/on driftwood (this is
> > a huge problem among even the most seasoned growers)?
>
> Not me. I can kick it's butt any day of the week.
>
> >  Why can't we isolate
> > this chemical, bottle it and make millions?  The market for a chemical
> like
> > this is enormous (almost all of it outside of the aquarium industry).
> Same
> > comments apply to Jim's reply, if these chemicals existed they would be
> > commercially available already and this would not be an academic
pursuit.
> :)
>
> Yes, they have tried a few different things, but nothing works well.
> I think this is good, since it forces folks to think about the plant's
> health and needs to achieve the desired effect.
>
> > Maybe.  Walstad method is based on the sequestering of nutrients in the
> > substrate, allelopathy is a part of her story but the bulk of it
involves
> > getting nutrients to where the algae can't be: in the substrate as well
as
> > floating plants to take advantage of atmospheric CO2.  These chemicals
> have
> > not been isolated yet, I don't believe they play any role in our
tanks...
> I
> > am not incorrect in saying evidence for allelopathy is shaky at best,
Tom
> > himself doesn't believe they play a role if I recall correctly.
>
> See eariler post on allelopathy.
>
> > Then please explain to me why hooking a bottle of O2 up to the tank,
> dosing
> > H2O2 to the water column, running an ozone machine, or any number of
> methods
> > I can use to supersaturate the water with these chemicals fails?
>
> Well it depends. O2 did not reduce the over all algae levels if you use
> Chlorophyll a, but the species did change.
> Some algae have no problems with high O2 leevls, 200% satuaration? No
> problem for things like Lyngba, see (Bowes some year but Lyngba is in the
> title of the paper).
>
>  Not one
> > person has ever answered this question for me (with a reasonable
> scientific
> > explanation).
>
> H2O2 is different than adding O2.
> Same for O3.
> All are intense oxidizers, with different effects.
>
> You can kill opff some species of algae with O2, but also your fish, same
> with H2O2.
> O3 is worse since if it's out in the water, it'll damage things worse than
> the other two but all three can kill in high enough levels.
>
> The best safe way: make the plants grow well so they produce the O2.
> I think perhaps algae and other processes in our tanks are set up to
"hear"
> or listen to this diuranl cycle of O2 levels, going up inthe afternoon
from
> photosynthesis and declining at night when the plants stop producing O2.
>
> We know it's not pH, our pH's are relative stable, you know it's not
> allelopathic chemicals, Ole and I will argue you till you die on that one.
> Simply add activated he tank to prove this(it'll remobve the allelopathic
> chemicals).
> Herbivores can be added and removed to note effects.
> Fish waste can be added, deleted by feedings, reducing biomass of fish
etc.
> NH4 can be added(don't do this unless you know that you will get algae and
> know what amounts that you are adding etc).
>
> It's not so simple as we might hope.
> That I do know.
> I think that O2 levels play a large role.
> I think NH4 competition plays a large role.
> I us, you and I, going in and removing the old, half dead overgrown parts
> of the plants, trimming off the algae manually, Large water
changes(Removes
> any residual break down from the organic nitrogen pool), stable food
supply
> for the plants, export of waste vuia pruning, filter cleaning etc, filters
> converting NH4=>NO3, light controls, CO2 for some species all play a role.
>
> The more of these things you do on a regular basis, the closer you are to
> having a nice algae free tank. Some folks get lucky and hit right off.
> Many don't.
>
> I'll address non CO2 tanks in another post.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Barr
>
> > Good posts,
> > Jeff Ludwig
> > Elkton, MD
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
>
> End of Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 4, Issue 91
> *********************************************
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