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Re: KillieTalk Digest V2 #313




     This is how I change water for the tiny frys.   I use Billi Tetra 
     Sponge filter and let the water back down throught the airline  via 
     gravity.   The filter head must be above the water level.   I did use 
     this method for changing Janpapi without any problem.   I like Tetra 
     spong as it is very fine.  Other sponges such as Dirt Magnet seem too 
     big for the aphybranchius fry.
     
     Robert Nhan.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: KillieTalk Digest V2 #313
Author:  <KillieTalk at AKA_Org> at INTERNET
Date:    7/30/98 3:28 PM


     
KillieTalk Digest       Thursday, July 30 1998       Volume 02 : Number 313
     
     
     
In this issue:
     
        RE: BNL online?
        nipagin
        Want some fundulus
        Re: nipagin
        RE: BNL online?
        Color film
        Aphyobranchius
        RE: KillieTalk Digest V2 #311 -Reply 
        Re: BNL online? -Reply
        Color film -Reply
        Re: BNL online? -Reply
        Re: BNL online? -Reply -Reply
        Re: I-net BNL soapbox - again SPAM -Reply
     
See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing from the 
KillieTalk mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.
     
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:01:03 +0100
From: "J.P.Haffegee" <J.P.Haffegee at open_ac.uk> 
Subject: RE: BNL online?
     
        Listing the BNL over the net could be perceived as unfair to
people without computer access, but you could say that having auctions 
is unfair to people without transport to get to them, or even having 
local clubs is unfair to people who live in areas without one. I've no 
transport, no local club, and I live in UK, so i'm unlikely to ever get 
anything from the BNL (I should have paid extra to get it airmail). The 
BKA fish list is mostly the same every month, so I won't get much new 
from there either. The vast majority of my eggs have come from 
unnofficial swaps from killie lists. Why not have the electronic bnl 
entirely separate from the printed one- it may not be available to 
everyone , but neither are the fish at a convention or local club. The 
cost of a second hand computer probably isn't so different from travel 
and accomodation to a killiweekend somewhere.
                Julian
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:08:08 +0100
From: "J.P.Haffegee" <J.P.Haffegee at open_ac.uk> 
Subject: nipagin
     
        I've been feeding my killies lots of drosophila larvae for
years, and i've used nipagin as a mold inhibitor for as long( I work in 
a genetics lab, and have more fruit flies literally coming out of my 
ears!). however, i've just discovered (Helners book, that i've also had 
as long, yet never spotted this sentance) that nipagin causes hereditary 
illness within fish. Does anyone know anything about this? What form 
will hereditary illnesses take. Can anyone be less vague. The only good 
thing is that maybe now i'll find my fish easier to keep, if i'm not 
poisoning them on a regular basis
     
                Thanks 
                                Julian
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:58:55 EDT
From: BizEcology at aol_com
Subject: Want some fundulus
     
I would like to get some of the North American Fundulus species.  I have a 
source for F. Chrysotus, but would like to get some of the others.  Any 
breeders on this group?  I'm in the process of phasing out my Aphyosemions to 
make space for these fish.  I've checked the BNL, but haven't seen much.
     
<<** Larry **>>
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:37:34 -0500
From: George Slusarczuk <yurko at warwick_net> 
Subject: Re: nipagin
     
Hello Julian,
     
I have never heard that Nipagin (methyl p-hydroxybenzoate) is a mutagen 
- -- how else could it produce *hereditary* illness?. Isn't it used as a 
mold inhibitor also in foods?
     
I realize, that its effect on fish need not be the same as on flies, but 
all that genetic work done on Drosophila should have raised at least 
some suspicion.
     
Could it be a typo, or a mistranslation? Is that statement present also 
in the original German edition -- does anybody have it?
     
Best,
     
George S
     
     
J.P.Haffegee wrote:
> 
>         I've been feeding my killies lots of drosophila larvae for
> years, and i've used nipagin as a mold inhibitor for as long( I work in 
> a genetics lab, and have more fruit flies literally coming out of my
> ears!). however, i've just discovered (Helners book, that i've also had 
> as long, yet never spotted this sentance) that nipagin causes hereditary 
> illness within fish. Does anyone know anything about this? What form
> will hereditary illnesses take. Can anyone be less vague. The only good 
> thing is that maybe now i'll find my fish easier to keep, if i'm not
> poisoning them on a regular basis
> 
>                 Thanks
>                                 Julian
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:44:09 +0200
From: "Tyrone Genade" <9790020 at narga_sun.ac.za> 
Subject: RE: BNL online?
     
Hi me again
     
To add my 2 cents to Julians 2 bucks... 
> Why
> not have the electronic bnl entirely separate from the printed one 
Yes! This is what I was trying to get at in my last post on this 
subject. Naturally we can't expect something for free which everyone 
else has to pay for.
In stead of having an online BNL why not have an "online egg&fish 
exchange" in the form of a monthly digest? Those people who still wish 
to advertise in the BNL could still do so as well as advertise on the 
OE&FE. This way every one gets roughly a fair shot at getting that 
fish they see advertised. Especially those who don't have access to 
the BNL or anything like it.
     
Of course having this type of computer/paper compitition would 
enspire people to get computers and join the digital era.
     
regards
     
Tyrone
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 8:59:45 -0600 
From: elyj at liddellsapp_com
Subject: Color film
     
Lee Harper writes:
     
 This can not be related to the movie film since it is used to make the
negatives, not the slides. I, of course do not have ten years experience 
with SFW, but I have had faded Kodachrome and Ektachrome slides over
the years. It depends more on the processing lab than the film. Relying 
only on my personal experience with B&W processing it has more to do 
with fixing and washing the film than anything else.
     
 This is turning into a photography group, but since people seem
interested, here's one more on this topic. Lee is right about black and 
white - when properly processed, black and white negatives and prints 
are virtually permanent. Unfortunately this is not true with the color
media. Ecktachrome fades pretty badly, to a sort of sickly greenish cast, 
even when well processed. If you keep the slides cool (I know a 
professional "art" photographer who rents a space and keeps his
negatives there in about fifteen refrigerators) and in the dark, the fading 
will take longer, but it will still occur. This is because the dyes in the film 
are not stable and break down. The newer Ecktachrome is supposed to
be better, but I don't think it has been long enough to really tell. 
Kodachrome is much longer lasting, but will still fade, although it tends to 
get reddish. Ordinary color negative film (C-41) also fades, and I assume SFW 
will do the same. Color prints also fade, as I'm sure you all know.
Keep your negatives and slides as cool as possible (not in the attic in 
summer), and keep them in the dark. This will help, but eventually you will 
notice degredation. This is where good scans may save the day. The
bytes in a file will never change.
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:20:40 -0600
From: "Brian R. Watters" <bwatters at sk_sympatico.ca> 
Subject: Aphyobranchius
     
Tyrone Genade wrote:
     
>Hi Bill and others
>
>> How do you go about doing a water change with such small fry? 
>
>Easy. Take a normal hose or what ever you use to suck up water with 
>and put a sponge at the end.
>
     
With very small fry, such as Aphyobranchius fry, I would suggest caution 
with such a method. Sponges are, of course, porous and if you get a good 
suction going (as you certainly would with a "normal" hose) the fry will be 
sucked right into the sponge, never to be seen again. Believe me, 
Aphyobranchius fry are SMALL and would have no trouble disappearing into the 
pores of a sponge.
__________________________________________ 
Brian R. Watters
University of Regina
Regina, Saskatchewan S4S 0A2, Canada
Ph: (306) 584-9161 (home); (306) 585-4663 (work) 
Fax: (306) 585-5433
E-mail: bwatters at sk_sympatico.ca
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:09:45 -0500
From: William Vannerson <William_Vannerson at ama-assn_org> 
Subject: RE: KillieTalk Digest V2 #311 -Reply
     
>>You should realize that truly discerning killi keepers appreciate these 
fish much more than the gaudy, over colored fish so easily attainable in 
the hobby!<<
     
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
     
My comment wasn't meant to be derogatory.  It was said with 
"tongue-in-cheek.:  Is there an emoticon for "tongue-in-cheek?"
     
I still find the price soem rare species command to be amazing.  Likewise, 
I feel the same way about the "gaudy" fish and even other rare fish like 
Pigeon Blood Discus.
     
Bill Vannerson
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/william_vannerson
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:44:27 -0500
From: William Vannerson <William_Vannerson at ama-assn_org> 
Subject: Re: BNL online? -Reply
     
>>You have it absolutely right when you say, that unless one joins the 
AKA, or the DKG, or the BKA, or ..., one can not receive the services 
provided by these organizations for *their* members. Isn't it as it 
should be? Members pay dues for the express purpose of receiving the 
benefits of membership. If one could get all the services for free, then 
why pay the dues?<<
     
There's a fine line here that is also at the crux of the "to be or not to be" 
digital BNL.
     
First of all, if the AKA were to distribute the BNL on-line, I would suggest 
that only the F&E listing be sent to non-members.  The rest of the BNL is 
club business and should be kept that way.
     
Secondly, the bigger question would be "what are the benefits of the
AKA and why join?"  IMHO the F&E list is not the prime motive to join.  In 
fact, I have never obtained fish through the BNL.  My first killies where 
obtained from my involvement on the Killies list, well before I joined the 
AKA.  I now get fish from list folks and from my local club members.
     
If the BNL F&E listing is perceived to be the primary reason for joining the 
AKA, then the organization is in trouble because the Internet will replace 
the F&E eventually (sooner not later).
     
I joined for three reasons:
     
1. To learn, primarily through JAKA.
2. To meet fellow killie keepers through AKA conventions. 
3. To support the hobby.
     
The last point is not because I'm a philanthropist, because I'm not.  I could 
easily figure out other ways to spend my dues dollars.  But I do
recognize that killies will never be a commercially available option and that 
the general availability of them to hobbyist, like myself, depends upon the 
incredible people that forage through the wild areas of the world to collect 
them and upon an organization like the AKA.
     
The AKA provides structure and consistency to the hobby.  And since I 
intend to participate in this hobby for many years to come, I will support 
the AKA, warts and all.
     
I'm I that different from the rest?
     
Do you join solely because of the F&E listing?
     
Or have you not joined because you perceive the F&E listing as the only 
reason to join and you can find you fish elsewhere, like from the lists?
     
Bill Vannerson
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/william_vannerson
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:45:08 -0500
From: William Vannerson <William_Vannerson at ama-assn_org> 
Subject: Color film -Reply
     
>>This is where good scans may save the day. The 
bytes in a file will never change.<<
     
Until your hard drive crashes <g>.
     
Thanks to all who have provided input on this subject.  I've learned a lot.
     
Bill Vannerson
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/william_vannerson
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:05:40 -0500
From: George Slusarczuk <yurko at warwick_net> 
Subject: Re: BNL online? -Reply
     
Hello Bill,
     
I agree with you that the F&E listing is not the only reason one joins 
the AKA (or any other specialist society) but for many it is probably a 
contributory cause -- whether they buy from it, or not. I look at it 
every month, as I used to do with Lennie's N&R listing. By the way, is 
the new N&R Committee chair planning to continue Lennie's practice to 
list available fish in the BNL?
     
I also agree, that besides self-interest, most of us are willing to 
contribute to the common weal. As you say, the line where selflessness 
and exploitation meet is very fine. I find it also subjective. What I 
have very little tolerance for is when I perceive, rightly or wrongly, 
that somebody is looking for a free ride. Not necessarily in the sense 
of paying *money* for value received, but in the sense that the world 
*owes* it to them -- "they deserve it", as the current advertising 
slogan goes!
     
I am not so certain that Internet will replace the printed media in my 
lifetime. Remember the "paperless office" of 20 years ago? I know a 
scientist, with three kids (now grown), who does not own a TV -- never 
has -- and it has been on the market for 50 years. (He does have a 
computer, though.) So, go figure!
     
Having sounded so very righteous above, I really don't mind leveling the 
playing field for those in a less fortunate geographical position. But 
don't play me for a sucker! 
     
If I sound bitter -- I am. Couple days ago I received a letter from Iraq 
(yes, IRAQ) asking for all kinds of killie-related goodies, without even 
offering to trade them for local Aphanius species -- however impractical 
such a transaction might prove to be. So don't mind my ranting too much, 
I'll settle down in a while!
     
Best,
     
George S
     
     
     
     
William Vannerson wrote:
     
> There's a fine line here that is also at the crux of the "to be > or not to 
be" digital BNL.
> 
> First of all, if the AKA were to distribute the BNL on-line, I would suggest 
> that only the F&E listing be sent to non-members.  The rest of the BNL is
> club business and should be kept that way. 
> 
> Secondly, the bigger question would be "what are the benefits of the
> AKA and why join?"  IMHO the F&E list is not the prime motive to join.  In 
> fact, I have never obtained fish through the BNL.  My first killies where 
> obtained from my involvement on the Killies list, well before I joined the 
> AKA.  I now get fish from list folks and from my local club members.
> 
> If the BNL F&E listing is perceived to be the primary reason for joining the 
> AKA, then the organization is in trouble because the Internet will replace
> the F&E eventually (sooner not later). 
> 
> I joined for three reasons:
> 
> 1. To learn, primarily through JAKA.
> 2. To meet fellow killie keepers through AKA conventions. 
> 3. To support the hobby.
> 
> The last point is not because I'm a philanthropist, because I'm not.  I could 
> easily figure out other ways to spend my dues dollars.  But I do
> recognize that killies will never be a commercially available option and
> that the general availability of them to hobbyist, like myself, depends upon 
> the incredible people that forage through the wild areas of the world to
> collect them and upon an organization like the AKA. 
> 
> The AKA provides structure and consistency to the hobby.  And since I
> intend to participate in this hobby for many years to come, I will support 
> the AKA, warts and all.
> 
> I'm I that different from the rest? 
> 
> Do you join solely because of the F&E listing? 
> 
> Or have you not joined because you perceive the F&E listing as the only 
> reason to join and you can find you fish elsewhere, like from the lists? 
> 
> Bill Vannerson
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/william_vannerson
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:48:59 -0500
From: William Vannerson <William_Vannerson at ama-assn_org> 
Subject: Re: BNL online? -Reply -Reply
     
>>What I have very little tolerance for is when I perceive, rightly or 
wrongly, that somebody is looking for a free ride. Not necessarily in the 
sense of paying *money* for value received, but in the sense that the 
world *owes* it to them -- "they deserve it"...<<
     
I agree.  In the case of the F&E listing, they pay for it by purchaing the 
fish from members.  Non-members would not be able to post ads, only 
members.  That's the benifit of membership.  When I purchased my first 
killies from Ed Warner, he had no qualms selling fish (and his book <g>) 
to a non-member.  Some folks do, and that's their perogative.  He did 
mention the AKA, but it was a soft sell.  I joined shortly afterwards.
     
>>I am not so certain that Internet will replace the printed media in my 
lifetime.<<
     
If ever.  I do believe that electronic versions can replace many paper 
forms as well as augment printed versions.  An electronic JAKA would 
be a great searchable resource.  But nothing can replace getting the 
printed copy in the mail to read, like the last issue.
     
This topic has been discuss before, and it will continue to a topic that 
keeps appearing from time to time until the AKA does something about it. 
And it is a matter of "when" not "if."  
     
>>If I sound bitter -- I am. Couple days ago I received a letter from Iraq 
(yes, IRAQ)....<<
     
How did he come by your name?  (just curious).
     
Bill Vannerson
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/william_vannerson
     
------------------------------
     
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:46:41 -0400
From: "Al & Lana Anderson" <killiman at indy_net> 
Subject: Re: I-net BNL soapbox - again SPAM -Reply
     
I look at the general membership this way. If they are a month late because 
they do not have the means to communicate with others it is their problem. 
It is like  the Rare fish going to the bidders for Megga bucks, how is that 
fair?
     
     
     
Al & Lana Anderson
Indianapolis In. 46220
1819967 ICQ NUMBER
Fax ( call first ) 317-253 2170
Fax # after call 3174661615
     
------------------------------
     
End of KillieTalk Digest V2 #313
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