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Re: [Killietalk] Commercial imports; what to label them?
You ask good questions, John.
I can't answer all of them, but I'll take a shot at a couple.
Generalizations about killifish are risky, for there are many hundreds
of different kinds. What applies to one will not apply to others.
The questions of hybrids and "mules" were addressed by Col. Jorgen
Scheel over a period of many years. Many of his findings were published
in _Rivulins of the Old World_ (aka ROTOW). Others were in letters that
are now a matter of public record. I suggest you read ROTOW to
understand some of the difficulties involved.
Commercial acceptability has little or nothing to do with fertility.
Killies are mostly just too small to be attractive in most shops. They
are also too mean. As fish from small waters, they often have different
behavior than big water fish like Tetras, Discus or Angels of the
Amazon. They usually fight for territory and breeding rights, more like
Bettas (also a puddle fish). Shops want good "community" fish, and few
killies fit that niche. They are also a bit more difficult to raise in
large numbers for the same reason. More dollars for smaller fish isn't
good commerce.
Killifish rarely have infertility problems after a few generations.
Those few just get talked about more. We have had a few examples of
accidental or deliberate mixing of females from a different location by
poor or unscrupulous exporters, mostly from W. Africa. South American
and East African Annuals, and most Asian species have been quite free
of such problems, by comparison.
Because they tend to be from small waters (what I call puddle fish),
killifish tend to become reproductively isolated rather easily. The net
result is that they may hybridize readily, but such hybrids may have
reduced ability to sustain fertility over several generations. This is a
technical curiosity, but does not apply to the vast bulk of killifish
species. Those, BTW, are kept out of this quagmire by just keeping
locations isolated. That's why we keep collection locations and/or codes
with all our fish when ever possible.
Col. Scheel even found a pair of species that looked identical in all
ways, but actually had a different total count of chromosomes! Their
offspring were, of course, infertile like "mules." [Donkeys and horses
have different chromosome counts, which is why their mules are infertile.]
There are actually a few very successful commercial killifish. "Golden
Wonders" are raised in commercial quantities in SE Asia, and
"American-Flag Fish" are readily available in most cities. I suspect the
latter are not usually farm raised, but wild caught in FL. Shops don't
know of their vegetarian needs, so they go from gorgeous to really ugly
in the usual bare store tank with a few plastic plants. [Some ignorant
shopkeepers also accept all females, and never know how glorious the
male pupfish can be.]
Personally, I don't much care that the local shops don't have any
killifish. As long as we have an active hobby trade that can satisfy my
need for an occasional "species fix'," I'm pretty happy to have the
friendly interactions that go with that way of doing fish.
I hope I have addressed some of your concerns, John. Killifish aren't
all that different. We are just blessed with a lot more variety than the
poor chicklet folks. ;-)
Wright
Hladky, John wrote:
> This is skirting the issue that has been my question since this
> thread started (indeed since I started reading killietalk several years
> ago). Why are killiefish so different than these others? As was stated
> below, to strengthen an angelfish line different collection sites are
> mixed with aquarium strains. Discus aquarium strains are "derived from
> mixing the different river collections". None of these have infertility
> problems after a few generations. Why won't this work for killiefish?
> I can't see how they could be are more isolated than others. All lake
> fish are isolated from other populations. Someone needs to experiment
> by mixing as many different populations of the same sub-species of
> killiefish to see if aquarium strains can be breed and established for
> many generations.
> Much talk has taken place on this list about the failure to
> attract and keep interested killiekeepers. One of the reasons stated is
> the difficulty of raising killies in commercial quantities. I think
> that not being able to keep a line of fish breeding for more than a few
> generations without them going infertile is a much bigger issue. Who
> wants to attempt to maintain a species that will invariably peter out
> after a few generations.
> I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to dispel my
> ignorance. I appreciate the other well written answers to my ramblings.
> They have been very informative, but no one has yet explained why
> breeding programs that work for other fish don't work for killies.
> John in Huntsville
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: killietalk-bounces at aka_org [mailto:killietalk-bounces at aka_org] On
> Behalf Of R. Brice
> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:48 PM
> To: killifish discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Commercial imports; what to label them?
>
> Hello John,
>
> The collecting codes for cichlids are hidden in the name: Ps demasoni
> "pombo
> rock" ... where the pombo rock is the collection code. Lab. C. "lions
> cove"
> is another collection code and so on for a lot of African cichlids.
>
> Discus have river collections attached to them unless they are an
> aquarium
> strain (derived from mixing the different river collections)
>
> Guppies are so mixed that there are very few wild strains traded ...
>
> Angels have collection codes but only for the "wilds" and are tracked
> only
> by a few top breeders to clean out the genetic problems that follow
> strains
> like the gold marble pearlscale, which does not occur in the wild but
> only a
> domesticated "aquarium strain"
>
> A few quick notes,
> Richard Brice
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Jabba" <diapteronsrgud at yahoo_ca>
> To: <killietalk at aka_org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Commercial imports; what to label them?
>
>
>
>> HI;
>> I have been following the series of posts on collection codes and I
>>
> am
>
>> trying to understand the logic about maintaining them. To my way of
>> thinking, after a given species has been kept and bred in your
>>
> fishroom
>
>> for a couple of generations the collection code is no longer valid for
>>
>
>
>> this particular pair and its offspring should take on a code relating
>>
> to
>
>> your fishroom. After all its native biotope is now that of a location
>>
> in
>
>> your house.
>>
>> I wouldn't think that there is ever any likelihood of ever taking any
>> species back to the original collecting point to possibly repopulate
>>
> it. I
>
>> have kept and bred many different fish over the years; Angels,
>>
> Guppies,
>
>> Barbs, Cichlids, Discus, etc etc,and I don't see this kind of
>> concentration on a code relating to an original collecting point for
>>
> these
>
>> fish so why is it done for my new love, Killifish.
>>
>> John J
>>
>> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 16:34:21 -0400
>> From: "Ken"
>> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Commercial imports; what to label them?
>> To: "'killifish discussion list'"
>>
>> I'm not t all against codes or labeling, as anyone who has received my
>>
>
>
>> fish
>> or visited my home can testify; when it comes to labeling and
>>
> "isolation",
>
>> I'm either paranoid, schitzo, or both :-) (fancy/detailed labels are
>>
> my
>
>> thing!)
>>
>> ...anyway, the whole point of codes/labeling is genetic
>> integrity/identification...my crystal ball tells me; once it becomes
>> cheap/easy to do; labeling per DNA/genetic "Code" in some manner is
>>
> the
>
>> logical way to go...all else is really moot (if indeed genetic purity
>>
> is
>
>> the
>> only reason for comprehensive labeling)
>>
>> Goals: understood we all got individual goals, but gotta admit there
>>
> is
>
>> some
>> hobby centric peer pressure & defacto unwritten/written codes of
>>
> ethics
>
>> we/most follow...and those "rules" are indeed centered around some
>>
> kind of
>
>> less visible goal(s),(or the behaviors these rules govern are near
>> pointless)...
>>
>> My thoughts were: w/o a clear understanding of exactly what we are
>>
> trying
>
>> to
>> accomplish through using codes & standards, any implementation thereto
>>
> is
>
>> relatively inefficient/meaningless unless the effort is concerted,
>>
> widely
>
>> practiced and understood what it is we are supposed to accomplish
>> ..Basically, other that I.D and therefore "dollar value", I'm not
>>
> really
>
>> certain
>>
>> ....pardon the slight soapbox journey there ;-)
>>
>> KC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
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>>
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>
>> Answers.
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>>
>>
>
>
>
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>
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>
--
Wright Huntley - 805 Valley West Cir., Bishop CA 93514 - whuntley at verizon_net 760 872-3995.
I was born in the United States of America.
Now I live in something called The Homeland.
If we aren't careful, we're going to die in New East Germany.
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