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Re: [Killietalk] Diapterons: defect genetic or enviroment
That article is far too old to have online access, I'm afraid. I have a
request in to get a copy but, as it is so old, it will take a few days
for the library to retrieve it from the storage areas. I'll post a
summary once I get it.
Barry
Barry J. Cooper
Sweet Home, OR 97386
lonlangione at comcast_net wrote:
> If you type in "Influence of temperature on the number of vertebrae in fish" on Google you will find a website refrencing this article by Y. Itazawa from Nature May 16, 1959. Click on his name a list of his articles come up. Looks like you need a membership to read the article. Maybe one of you two gentleman can access it there.
>
> Lonny
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Barry Cooper <bjc3 at centurytel_net>
>
>
>> I found a reference in an old Nature publication, which I'm now trying
>> to get. Our OSU vet. library doesn't have holdings going back that far.
>> The reference is:
>>
>> Influence of temperature on the number of vertebrae in fish.
>> Nature. 1959 May 16;183(4672):1408-9.
>>
>> I'll report later if I find it.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> Barry J. Cooper
>> Sweet Home, OR 97386
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Goldstein wrote:
>>
>>> This is real old and I couldn't put my finger on it easily. I'm copying
>>> Bruce Turner who probably knows about this as well. There were many old
>>> papers on Fundulus and Cyprinodon showing diminishing numbers of vertebrae
>>> with latitude (I don't recall in which direction) and that was explained as
>>> not a subspecies characteristic but a temperture effect in the old
>>> physiological literature. - Bob G.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Barry Cooper"
>>> To: "killifish discussion list"
>>> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 12:57 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Diapterons: defect genetic or enviroment
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have seen the same phenomenon is a couple of species of
>>>> Nothobranchius. It was very frustrating because it caused me to lose one
>>>> particularly desirable species. I have seen in recently in a second
>>>> species. The the latter case I hatched quite a few different species at
>>>> the same time and all the others appear to be normal.
>>>>
>>>> A friend reported to me that he had seen the same thing and that he
>>>> attributed it to low temperatures. I think he did that out of trial and
>>>> error, finding that increasing temperature prevented the effect. It is
>>>> interesting to think about the possibility that the low temperature
>>>> causes either loss of vertebrae of shortening of vertebrae. Bob, I'd be
>>>> very interested in knowing the references if you have them available. I
>>>> would think that the effect would have to occur during development of
>>>> the embryo, that is during incubation of the eggs, rather than at the
>>>> juvenile stage, if the loss of vertebrae effect is true. I would have to
>>>> think that fish don't produce extra vertebrae after hatching.
>>>>
>>>> Another friend has the same species in which I first saw this problem.
>>>> He incubates his eggs at a controlled temperature while mine are
>>>> incubated on shelves high up in my fishroom. The latter is kept in the
>>>> low to mid 70s so the temperature up there should be mid to high 70s.
>>>> However, it could fluctuate during the year and could result in sporadic
>>>> occurrence of this problem. Food for thought. Maybe it's time to build
>>>> an incubator.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting thoughts. I'd like to hear whether others have had this
>>>> experience.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>>
>>>> Barry J. Cooper
>>>> Sweet Home, OR 97386
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert Goldstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There is scientific literature that correlates colder temperatures with
>>>>> fewer vertebrae in killifishes, and vitamin deficiencies with bent spines
>>>>> in
>>>>> many fishes. Correlations are not proof of cause and effect, but they
>>>>> should be considered.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Miguel Angel"
>>>>> To: "lista AKA"
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 9:24 AM
>>>>> Subject: [Killietalk] Diapterons: defect genetic or enviroment
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I keep for two years Diap. Georgiae 95 Essongville without problems.
>>>>>> They
>>>>>> spawn, hatch well the eggs and they developed more or less normally. I
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> have Diap. Cyanostictum from 2006 november.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some young of georgiae and cyanostictum that was born at 2006 November
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> "short". The aspect of the fish is like an adult but its form is like if
>>>>>> we compress it the length, keeping the height. More or less their length
>>>>>> is around 2-2,5cm. They are healthy but abnormally short. They reminds
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> when years ago a friend talk me about the killis "bonsai".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reading something of information that there is at internet, somebody
>>>>>> attributes to low temperatures during the juvenile time the fact that
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> cut the growth and stay small. Other attributes it to the inbreedings
>>>>>> with brothers. It says to the increase on infertility and the fish to
>>>>>> stay
>>>>>> small.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those born in November are the first generation of reproduced Diap.
>>>>>> georgiae. The cyanostictum comes from some eggs that a friend give me.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> hypothesis that the low temperatures causes "dwarfism" can be true
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> some georgiae from 2006 June (first generation) are perfect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As control group I have some georgiae fry (2ª generation) and fulgens
>>>>>> (1ª
>>>>>> generation) that were born me in March. For the moment, their aspect is
>>>>>> normal, lengthened and fine. We will see that it happens when I breed
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> "short" cyanostictum and georgiae. I will see that it occurs to the fry;
>>>>>> if they "dwarfism" is heredity or if they will have a good development.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> must maintain the temperature since they born at 23-24ºC. to discard the
>>>>>> influence of the low temperature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did somebody happen something similar? Up to now I never see on my
>>>>>> breeding killis symptoms of "dwarfism". It is certain that the fish
>>>>>> developed in small aquariums usually have less size than those that have
>>>>>> grow in big aquariums. But this affects to the general aspect and the
>>>>>> obtained fish are proportional and not compressed lengthwise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any comment is appreciated
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes from Spain
>>>>>> Miguel Angel Saiz
>>>>>> www.misaher.es
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________________
>> ____
>>
>>>>>> Sé un Mejor Amante del Cine
>>>>>> ¿Quieres saber cómo? ¡Deja que otras personas te ayuden!
>>>>>> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/reto/entretenimiento.html
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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