Re: [Killietalk] Killietalk Digest, Vol 47, Jason's Softwater

["apistomaster at excite_com" <apistomaster at excite_com>]

Anderson)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message: 1Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 20:38:11 -0700 (PDT)From: Jason <rusticitas at yahoo_com>Subject: [Killietalk] I need some help with water chemistry and	additives	questions.To: Killietalk <KillieTalk at AKA_Org>[I tried posting this 2+ days ago, but it never appeared on the mailinglist, I am posting it again here.]A recent question I posted on a planted tank forum has re-openedquestions I have about water chemistry, specifically when mixing newwater for water changes. I thought I had started to get a handle onthis, but now I'm not so certain any longer. In general, my questionsform around re-mineralization, carbonates/bicarbonates, pH, hardnessand alkalinity (just to name a few!).All of this centers around how I have been mixing water change waterfor all of my tanks (planted, killies and some livebearer) over thelast year or two. I have been, without any obvious problems, mixing upa 20 gallon bucket of 
fairly hard water, then diluting that asnecessary depending upon which tank(s) I am changing the water for. Themixture I had settled on (about a year ago) is: 20 gallons of city tapwater, 16g Seachem Equilibrium, 12g Seachem Alkaline Buffer, 6g SeachemAcid Buffer (that is 2:1 ratio for pH7 as per Seachem's instructions).This resulted in water of approximately 450-500ppm TDS, pH 6.5-7.0, andalkalinity of ~4-4.5dKH (I forgot to take note of GH reading, but Ithink it is between 4-6dH).I had settled on this mixture as a result of some experiments whileteaching myself about water chemistry for my planted and killie tanks.My concern at first was, for my planted tanks, that my city's water wastoo soft (~40ppm TDS, 0-1dH, 0-1dKH), but thankfully neutral (7pH). SoI started adding some Equilibrium which worked nicely by adding Ca andMg for the plants.Then I was concerned about the acid buffering capacity and the factthat alkalinity was so low, and that the fish waste would precipitate 
arise in NH3/NH4, drop the pH and generally create a toxic environment.Then I started to mix in Alkalinity Buffer. This, of course, drove upthe pH. That made me concerned for the soft-water fish (ie. killies),which seem to want/prefer neutral to acidic pH's. I could not figureout how does one get some buffering, yet keep a neutral pH. Then Ifound Acid Buffer, and after some wrangling and experimentation,started to use it.I had these concerns both from readings, and observations (even ifultimately incorrect). I then just got very used to mixing my sourcewater in that fashion, and had not questioned it. Until now!I've never had any problems with the water (per se) with regards tofish health. However, as mentioned above, a recent question on aplanted tank forum got me a reply saying it's really not a good idea touse pH altering products in planted tanks. (I am assuming, until I geta further reply, that they're referring specifically to Acid Buffer, asI believe Alkaline Buffer is
  
"effectively" baking soda/powder forbicarbonates).Now, I would *really* prefer to only have one way to mix the sourcewater for all water changes, and dilute as necessary for the intendeddestination tank.With regard essential for fish health and breeding, rather than plantsper se, I have the following questions:(1) Do I even need to worry about alkaline buffering? If so, that willalways raise the pH, correct? And if so, how the heck does one getalkalinity and a neutral to acid pH? (That doesn't seem possible tome.)(2) When talk is of "remineralization" (say for RO/DI water), is itreferring only to GH, and therefore Ca and Mg addition to the water?(3) Does NaCl come into play with killies at all, beyond some of myreadings recommending it to help prevent/cure ich?(4) Can "ideal" water parameters be broken down by genus of (killie)fish? That is, would, say, Aphyosemion and Fundulopanchax use very soft(<100ppm) water, and Nothobranchius use medium-to-hard water (200+ppm)?Does one 
genus like or need NaCl? (I think this one is a big can ofworms, no pun intended.)(5) Could I possibly make this posting more complicated?I currently keep: Fp. gardneri Misaje, Fp. cinnamomeus, Ep. roloffi,Plataplochilus cabindae, A. congicum Z82/17 (fry growing out fromeggs), A. bivittatum Funge (fry growing out from eggs), Procatopussimilis Moliwe, Simpsonichthys reticulatus Xingu (growing out fromeggs), and Terranatos dolichopterus (eggs not yet hatched). There aresome others not yet hatched from eggs yet, notably a couple of Nothospecies. For livebearers I have panda guppies, and Limia tridens.Again, I apologize for the long message here, but I felt the backgroundmight help avoid a long back-and-forth questioning and assist ingetting to the point(s)! And point me in the right direction. I don'tmind doing more reading, research and experimentation. I've just lostthe forest for the trees, so to speak. :-){ Jason Stanford - rusticitas at yahoo_com - Bethlehem, PA, USA }       
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Hey Jason,
Do you realize how envious many of us are to have our source water with your parameters? I pains me that only about 15% of the water run through an RO membrane filter is product and the rest is often wasted.

True, your water is too soft for some fish but as a softwater fish specialist I can only view your circumstances through green eyes. I have 110 ppm hardness and 7.4 pH from the tap and most fish do fine in it but I still use RO for breeding Characins like my current effort with Coral Red Pencils, Dwarf Pike Cichlids, C. regani and some other SA Dwarf Cichlids where I may drop the pH to the 4.5 range and 20ppm hardness.
I prefer to lower the pH using peat and/or Alder Cones. The mild organic acids lower pH without increasing the TD significantly

The problem of using all the products to adjust for pH and buffer to maintain it is that it is inevitably going to increase the TDS, again that is fine for some fish but not the direction one wants for softwater fishes. It is also annoying to spend the money on these miracles in a jar products.

I think think your water is great as is. I would probably add a teaspoon of NaCl/gal for my Killifsh fry and all Nothos to help prevent Velvet. A nice side effect is that live artemia nauplii live a couple hours longer, too.

I really think you should specialize in softwater fishes given the fact that you are blessed with your type of water. It is still in a range where plants, particularly many difficult species should grow very well for you, providing lighting, fertilization are correct and if you opt for CO2 but the latter is very much an option.

Well, Jason, these are just some suggestions and they reflect my bias for softwater fishes. You are in a good position to adjust your water without much need for ever needing an RO filter to accomplish most breeding projects.
Larry Waybright

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