Re: [Killietalk] Breeder vs. Blackhole

[rwpierce at att_net]

Thanks for the kind words, Ken.  

I have also gotten some of my best fish from Ken, and they are still alive more than half a year later.  You can't do anything about rumors, but of you have traded with 10 people and only one has a problem, people can figure out what is going on.  

When I talk about distributing fish through a network, I am talking more about trades than sales.  I would rather trade fish with people, and have found that this is the best way to get the fish you might not otherwise see even listed for sale.  If someone offers something that they think is special, I am going to try to offer something I think is also special. Sometimes you only get a few pairs a year out of the more stubborn fish, and that is where they go.  Of course I assume that if someone has some more unusual fish to trade, I assume that they have spawned them, especially if they can send young fish. 

I don't think that I am trying to hide fish by distributing them through a network first.  I hope that by having a number of people breeding them, they become more numerous and more available to everyone.  After all, what good does it do to hide your fish?  If you lose them, you have no way to get them back.  

Rich




-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Ken" <ken_combs at sbcglobal.net>
>
> Richard, all>
> 
> I've dealt with Richard before and have been the grateful recipient of some
> of the best fish in my fish-room...I'm just using his post to highlight a
> couple of points that I've given a great deal of thought to over the last
> few yrs...I'm playing the Devils advocate here for what I believe is a
> worthy/healthy discussion: <long>
> 
> Richard explained:
> 
> "Like most in the AKA, I have a network of friends I have made over the
> years, and these people get first crack at rare fish I succeed in breeding.
> These are people who have demonstrated ability to breed fish.  This is the
> "old-boy network" newcomers complain about and it does exist.  If you don't
> like it, tough!  They are my fish and I'll give them to whoever I want.  Put
> in the time, learn how to breed, show your fish, and network.  Networking is
> the only way to make sure fish get into the hands of those who will put
> sincere effort into breeding and distributing fish. No method of sales will
> do this, but it cuts new people out of the ability to get fish"
> 
> ...Truly valid points, and from the angle of "personal satisfaction" that
> was given: totally honorable, succinct, upfront and perhaps as a hobbyist
> right (again, I've received darn nice fish from Richard and am not inclined
> to feel that was directed at me or anyone in particular)...
> 
> I'm no better/worse than anyone else here and likely w/o realizing it think
> no different than anyone else...But playing Devils Advocate: things get
> "complex" if someone widens the scope to claim and encompass more
> macro/loftier goals & variables, such as: "master breeder", distributor of
> fish; "greater benefit" of the hobby; and club goals/resources...
> 
> This issue gets truly "sorted" when one views it from a series of simple
> questions: 
> 
> -What then distinguishes subjective skill criteria FROM someone's "network
> of friends"? (Isn't it totally probable ones list of "master breeder" &
> "friends" is one in the same? Or darn close)
> 
> -what about the obvious "dual hypocrisy" of someone claiming to be a
> club/hobby supporter, then hiding their fish so only their "friends" (or
> "master breeders")can have access to their fish?  (my point being: how can
> we claim to support the larger hobby/club, but "filter" this support to only
> the people we know?) 
> 
> -Is giving fish only to people we know really a "personal satisfaction"
> thing under the guise of "hobby support"?
> 
> - Is the "net gain" truly going to benefit the hobby via "trickle down" fish
> distribution? Or is the net gain actually confined to a small network of
> people satisfying each other?
> 
> -is the "network" really a collection of truly a skilled aquarist, or is it
> a function of the fish species we have? (Whether self produced or
> not)...What I'm saying here is; are those Skilled breeders associating with
> the "gardneri circuit" or just the "Diapteron/rare aphy/rare notho" folks?
> 
> I believe I got some valid and complex questions there...I don't question
> with whom, where or how anyone distributes their fish per se...... 
> ...perhaps a right, but easily construed as shallow hypocrisy from a
> alternate viewpoint (and truly the catalyst behind the origins of the
> persistent "Good-ole-boy" network of "club contributors")...to the external
> eye, it's potentially a semi-transparent "club within a club" thing where
> the "master breeders" anoint each other based on what fish they have as
> opposed to actually being a collection of truly skilled aquarist... <LOL> 
> 
> 2nd point: a hobbyist reputation as a "blackhole" vs. skilled breeder: 
> A true story highlights this dilemma: I got word in a round about way that
> one individual "black-listed" me as a killer of his fish, worse he went on
> to claim my trade died shortly after he received them...
> ...Well, dang, isn't that convenient!...of course he feels he was the one
> who shipped the healthy fish and I'm the one who killed them, but naturally
> it was not the case the other way around...nice!!!
> 
> We can't just assume our fish always make a "perfect landing" on the other
> end, and the recipient simply sucks at maintaining them...I can think of a
> few "self proclaimed master breeders" out here that won't return emails or
> even let you know there was a problem to begin with (but sure as hell will
> email the "network" about a deal gone south)...
> 
> Just saying we should be careful about word of mouth based reputation, and
> claims for the reasons we breed and distribute our fishes...
> 
> I'm also suggesting here, if the club, or individual, or concerned hobbyist
> want to do something good for the hobby via "breeding", then perhaps some
> unbiased, non-subjective means of measurement should be visible (BAP points
> or something)...I'm also suggesting that perhaps the time is at hand for
> some sponsored "hybrid" program encompassing the open commercial market and
> conscience organized effort to distribute/breed species...  
> 
> Ken...not being a "provocateur", but going outside the box, looking back
> in,,,
> 
> 
> 
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