Re: [Killietalk] pH (was Re: copper leaching from new plumbing)

[Charles & Sue Harrison <csharrison at inkmaker_net>]

Gosh, There should be something here to disagree with . .  ,  lets see

The "system" makes the tap water pH high so it doesn't mess with the 
civil plumbing, Copper, iron, etc. . . . yea, that's correct

Wright's obsession is with Ammonia/Ammonium ions  -  not necessarily 
with the Chloroamines.  BUT, I shouldn't be able to raise ANY Killies 
in St Louis treated tap water if all his feelings were true.

I posted the EPA report(sorry for the .GOV thing) on their study on 
Ammonia ionized and as the dissolved gas on my fish page:

http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish

a long time ago. The substance of that report is that tolerances 
varies enormously among the families and genera of aquatic animals. 
Killies can stand a lot higher concentration of the NH4+ and NH3 than 
most all the families reported on, and the book is very thick. It is 
the total Ammonia concentration that really matters, but the Family 
of fishes is even more important. Read it - look at the charts . . . 
regrets there are so few Killies

Hawaiian water, natural waters, are so devoid of minerals the best 
plumbing has got to be bamboo! A little sway in pH one way or another 
has got to be a bad thing. Sorry Mach, but Charcoal will not remove 
Copper from the water.

As the remainder of thing Chemistry goes,  there is enormous 
tolerances among the Families of aquatic animals. Nitrous Acid is far 
more important than Ammonia through out the lists of animal life. 
Chlorine kills but low pH and Nitrous acid kills faster.

Enough for an argument?

Charles H


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "Scott Douglass" <scottdouglass2000 at yahoo_com.au>
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] pH (was Re:  copper leaching from new
	plumbing)
To: "'killifish discussion list'" <killietalk at aka_org>

You summed it up very nicely there Wright. Sudden water changes are always a
big killer. Like you mention it is indirect though, as it really becomes an
interesting chemistry experiment on the water. Sudden changes from Ammonium
to Ammonia and lots of other changes.

Oh and I had to laugh about the books, you are right of course. I have a
dozen or so which anywhere else would be outright plagiarism. Then again I
could name more than a few text books which are excellent examples of
rewriting.

The test kits and gadgets and gizmo'z in a typical store.. well as they say
in Australia.. "You are creating a job for someone.." (Perhaps on the other
side of the world.. but we wont go there).

Water chemistry (at a hobbyist level) is not that hard, just some high
school chemistry and commonsense.

BTW Those R.agilae that you brought over are showing some good eggs. They
did have me wracking my brain for a while though. In the back of my mind I
kept thinking about "Wright and his obsession with chloramines". Again
though, some Carbon and a bit of research and a lot of problems can go away
very fast.

Australian English? Well I can practice my American English... Although
looking at the news from North America, I think you all should start
considering changing the American word for house - to igloo.

Yall have a nice day now!
;)

Scott,
Singapore.

-----Original Message-----
From: killietalk-bounces+scottdouglass2000=yahoo_com.au at aka.org
[mailto:killietalk-bounces+scottdouglass2000=yahoo_com.au at aka.org] On Behalf
Of Wright Huntley
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 1:09 AM
To: killifish discussion list
Subject: [Killietalk] pH (was Re: copper leaching from new plumbing)

Scott Douglass wrote:
>  Wright,
>
>  It is a while since we argued ;)
>
Long time, no disagree! :-)
>  I still have to disagree with you - a little, on the pH thing.
>
Ask me why I'm not surprised.
>  In most cases freshwater fish are quite adaptable with pH, but their
>  physiology is such that different species are adapted to different pH
>  ranges.
>
I don't think we actually disagree much on that.
>  Often we might not notice this directly, but it does place increased
stress
>  on the fish, in particular the respiratory system and the kidneys. Also
the
>  blood of fish is quite complex compared to other animals and is quite
>  dependent on pH, Root effect etc.
>
>  Although agreed most freshwater fish are quite tolerant of variations of
pH,
>  but fish in general have to spend a fair amount of energy keeping their
>  blood chemistry correct.
>
Amen, brother. You are preaching to the choir, on that. My point was
that external factors depending on pH are most often the important ones,
but I do agree that there is a "best pH" range for some species. Low for
wild Bettas, because they like/tolerate the kinds of bacteria that grow
there, for example.
>  For fish from very particular environments I would be cautious of ignoring
>  pH too much as their Kidneys in particular and respiratory system to a
>  degree would be placed under increased stress.
I find few killies, other than maybe brackish/salt-water species, that
seem to give a damn. In many cases, the osmotic pressure of the
dissolved solids is a far bigger factor than the pH. I use my tds meters
at least 10 times as often as my pH meters. Soft or hard water are far
more important to most species.

OTOH, I think your concerns are most valid when it comes to eggs. I
suspect they are less adaptable than their parents to alien conditions,
and pH could well be one of those factors (but probably less important
than other pH-dependent chemistry parameters).
>
>
>  The renal system is used to excrete excess H+ etc. That is also one reason
>  why marine fish are very specific in terms of pH as they do not have the
>  excretory capacity of freshwater fish. Other inorganic salts are used such
>  as Phosphates, Carbonates and other -ates and similar in these excretory
>  functions. Since solubility is highly dependent on pH, lots of very weird
>  things can happen when you have unusual situations like low pH and high
>  Hardness and vice versa. I remember vaguely reading something about
crystal
>  formation due to precipitation on gill membranes in such circumstances.
>
This doesn't negate the fact that most published hobby info on pH is
bunk, and most fish stores believe absolutely anything they read in
Baensch, et al. They love to use it to sell hugely over-priced test kits
that their customers really don't need. They mostly don't even stock a
decent chlorine test, which is also very cheap at the local pool and spa
vendor. 90% of the "infertility" cases I have observed have been due to
low levels of chlorine/chloramine, that the fishkeeper insisted were not
in his (untested) water.
>  Another side effect of unfamiliar pH for a fish would be increased
>  metabolism.
>
Possible, but it isn't something I have ever observed directly.
>  Still in general I agree a lot of freshwater fish could not care less, but
>  for those fish from particular environments, or when you start getting
into
>  extremes then I am sure pH becomes quite important.
>
Again, I suggest it is the impact of pH change on other chemistry that
is usually most important, and understanding why a shipped bag of
ammonium-loaded fish dies when exposed to local high-pH tap water
(ammonia poisoning) is more important than thinking the fish are subject
to an unreal thing like pH shock. [The high pH changes some of the
harmless ammonium ions to dissolved ammonia, which is deadly at very low
levels. Their equilibrium is pH and temperature dependent. This or
osmotic-pressure shock are the source of about 90% of the pH mythology
(and temperature-shock mythology). Scheel reports sudden changes of
three points in pH with no observed distress, and I have routinely
ignored two or more points difference, as long as no ammonium or nitrite
was present. I still often use drip acclimation for new fish, but mostly
to avoid osmosis problems or to give the squirt of Amquel time to
neutralize the ammonium.]

I don't think we basically disagree. My main point was to understand
what is happening at different pH and not blindly accept a few
chemically-uneducated Atlas authors who have all copied from each other.
That can lead to attitudes like Mach's that he can't raise killies
because he has perfect killy water but doesn't know how to deal with the
regulatory problems (that always cause unintended consequences). A
little proper carbon filtering can make all his problems vanish, but it
will do nothing to the pH. OK?

Let's find something upon which we can really disagree. Politics? Aussie
"English?" We are playing nasty tag, and you are it! ;-)

Cheers,

Wright

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