[Killietalk] Natural method. was Re: Hung over

[Kenneth Combs <ken_combs at sbcglobal.net>]

Ray, everyone 
long post, believe it or not I had a much longer post on this (....and still wating on Monty ;-) )

***note: any newbies reading all this bull, just disregard; get a 5gal tank, pump, sponge filter and just enjoy your fish :-)
....just taking time to share......most of the detail is included in case someone wants to see how I'm coping/not coping with water quality, algae,plants and fry on a larger scale, so here goes (boring but detailed "blog" to compare notes, reading material, blah, blah...suggestions/crtique appreciated)

My racks: 
A) 4X15gal (2 top, 2 bottom), recirculating system w/300GPH pump (return=8 outlets @ 10GPH ea above surface), sump is 15gal tub w/chair cushion... top is lit w/2ea 32W T8's @ 2" above surface...anacharis only.... 76F
-top tanks contain 1pr ea: E.huberi (no fry no eggs) & E.,bifaciatus (no fry, no eggs but spawning observed on bare bottom)
- bottom (unlit tanks) contain mops with pairs of Aplocheilus dayi & linneatus (eggs collected from mops)
...notes: no observable algae, many pond snails, plant growth is aggressive

B) 6X15gal (3top 3bottom) recirculating system w/500GPH pump (8 outlets @ 30GPH ea above surface), sump is 15gal w/chair cushion, also has a "bio-ball tower"... top is lit w/2ea 32W T8's @ 6" above surface...hornwort only....76F 
-Top tanks contain grow out E.infrafasciatus & singa, bottom tanks:single pairs w/mops
...notes: many fungused eggs observed in planted tanks (when single pair is present), no fry (ever), swapping pairs to bare mopped tanks yields fewer (but fertile eggs)...NO snails are in these tanks, hornwort has slight algae issue under light center

C) 8x15gal (4top, 4 bottom) recirculating system w/500GPH pump (8 outlets @ 30GPH ea above surface), sump is 15gal w/chair cushion, ... top is lit w/2ea 32W T8's @ 2" above surface...anacharis only....72F 
Top tanks contain young adult GAR "N'Sukka", Scheeli, GAR "Akure", oeseri, (reserve fish)...Bottom tanks: bare, mops, single pairs
notes: no snails present, agressive plant & drk blue algea growth, occasional fry observed in bare single pair tanks only

D) 4X15 gal Austrolebias sp, unheated, air driven...(not planted as I hate mixing messy peat spawners & plants)

E) 8x15 gal Adult & grow out: FP.Sjoestedi, cinnamomeus, amieti & FIL , 500GPH recirurculating system w/bio-ball tower & mattress foam, 70F (messy peat again, so un-lit & not planted) ..note: no fry ever show up with these fish, I mean never...

F) 9X10gal air driven, un-heated colonies: Top=simps, Mid=Austrolebias, bottom=Natives (lit & planted)...no fry (obviously)

G) 48X10gal... top is air un-heated air driven, whereas tiers 2& 3 are recirculating/replenish "hybrid" (using waste R/O), 1500 GPH, 32 outlets @ approx 40GPH., new "waste R/O" enters @ approx 100gal/day @ 180ppm & pH 7.0..tower Bio-Ball filter, Fluidized bed filter & mattress foam...top tanks are juvenille grow-out & lampeyes, mid tanks are lit w/4ft shop light (2X32W T8's), planted (anacharis + java moss OR Watersprite & javamoss) and contain mixed sized aphyosemion & scripts, bottom tanks are bare, unlit w/aphyosemion pairs on mops

- I got 40 species I think; with some the "natural method" works like a charm, others are horrible fry egg eaters, I'm sure that is pretty obvious to most...for my circumstances; off the cuff, the best performance (most fry appearing) are (in order of most to least)
-elegans
-decorsei
-any chomeaphyosemion
-gardneri, scheeli, et
-lampeyes (at least the ones I have)
-striatum

...some of my fish apparently eat fry, and not eggs (too badly)...with those, removing the parents "seems" to work for me
-Apho.lineatus & dayi
-FP.ameiti, sjoestedi,oeseri
-some epiplatys

...some species, nothing has happened (but I find eggs in mops):
australe, bitteri, scripts, cinnamomeus, primegenium, congicum

the last list is interesting, because I've read some/many have success with those...I guess YMMV and all it takes is one bad actor...
...another thing you can bet on is; fry/juvenilles are worse predators than adults...

Plant/setup/water quality I've learned/observed this:
-obviously if you have an overflow, cover w/sponge, et
-I keep an area "un-siphoned"& dirty...apparently a overly anteseptic tank does not grow fry all that well (NTM siphons love small fry)
-I watch my type & growth of the algae to get a feel on how well the tank is going ...you shouldn't be cleaning the glass but 1x/week, nor should it be coating the plants
-brown algae= low light/not enough plants...darkgreen = too many nutrients, blue-green = way too many nutrients/new tank, light green=high light/not enough plant growth 
...najas & hornwort seem to outcompete algae better under lower light, in high capacity/high light tanks I'm using anacharis & watersprite (with an undergrowth of java moss/java fern)
....anyway, that darker greenhard, "circular algae" is normal/good and seems to only appear in established tanks , hair algae is bad and loves najas grass...slime dk green algae loves hornwort (pull back the light or change bulbs to fix)
....I'm using dbl 4ft 32W T8's (1ea Coolwhite, 1ea Warm) @ 4" above surface for anacharis...for hornwort: 8" above surface, for najas 1 single 32W...that boring "detail" may help with algae/water qual issues, so might this: I don't mix najas or hornwort with java moss, nor do I mix anacharis w/hornwort...(YMMV, but I've experimented over and over, seems true!)

Elaborating in boring detail.....
...Filtration & plants: I've read a lot of "planted tank" books and it vexes me that the emphasis in many books seems to be on lighting and fertilization, but in my 35ish years of keeping aquatic plants, the filter (or gas exchange) is a equally important factor...heck simply changing the length of your uplift tube can have a huge affect, as does how often your hands "bother" the plants (un-disturbed java moss, watersprite & rooted najas grass look VERY different if your hands stay out)...I got a few recirculating sytems, so therfore every tank essentially recieves the same nitrogen load, temperature, et...the only variables for each tank then are:
-distance from light "center" (the mid point of a flourenct bulb is the brightest)
-number of snails
-fish species
-water discharge (I vary whether the return goes above or below water)
-plant species & plant density (note tanks on my bottom racks have no plants or lighting)

Given that the nitrogen load & water turn over is equal for ever tand YET I'm still observing that the number of fry, snails and algae growth varies between tanks, I'm drawing the following inferences:

1) I find fry in some of my bare bottom tanks despite lack of plant cover, whereas in the some of the planted tanks immediatley above it, there are no fry (I keep the same species immedialey above in a planted tank to compare methods)..switching pairs from planted to bare tanks; same result...my conclusion is; something (snails?) are reducing the fish eggs in planted tanks (this isn't always the case)
2) in tanks that fry do show up, it is only for a short time, then none: my conclusion: fry eat fry
3) Since algae growth on the glass varies between tanks, I'm thinking nitrogen uptake in heavily planted tanks is occuring immediatley 
4) Since snail population varies, I'm wondering if the fish are affecting it somehow, although I've never observed a killie eating a snail
5) since fry production seems "somewhat" independent of cover, I'm wondering if planted tanks hardor more egg/fry predators...the suspects being other fry, or snails or something else
6) Outlet discharge affects plant growth: Some plants prefer surface movement, some don't, some like over-all circulation, some don't:
my inferences on that:

--best "air-driven" combo for me is watersprite & javamoss/java fern (with little/no surface disturbance)
--best "high disturbance" plant is anacharis (hands in tank, surface action, et)
--worst "high disturbance" (hands in tank) plants are: najas grass & watersprite 
--best "no flow"/no air/no filtration plant for me are najas grass & watersprite
--best "overflow" (low gas xchange) combo for me is anacharis & javamoss/java fern
--best low light (single bulb) plants for me are (in order)  java moss, java fern, najas grass, hornwort, watersprite
--best nitrogen absorber for me is watersprite (tight lid)...
--best snail resistant plants are najas grass, java fern, java moss....worst are watersprite, anarcharis (old growth)


finally: snails suck!!! esp "pond snails...ramshorns are a lil more benign, but still bad...although with anacharis & watersprite, they seem to encourage "branchy" new growth/plantlets by chomping on older growth and or by damaging tissue (I've actually experimented),...moreover, in my high light tanks, the mulm of "green snail droppings" seems to team with critters...but at minimal levels snails are kinda benificial as they keep the leaves of fine leafed plant algae free...at dense levels they are really hard on plants (esp watersprite) and I suspect them of eating eggs (at least that's my "excuse")....I now simply remove the plants, and spray them off, you may loose fish eggs, but, it's the lesser of two evils...

Feeding: ...I'm using a sponge to clean my tank glass, then tranfering the "material" to my daphnia tanks, then using the daphnia water to feed the tanks...no clue what is in the daphnia water, but you can see the fry snapping at it...ammonia is a non-issue with my plant density...
I also try to minimize feeding frozen food, frozen Brine shrimp is equivelent to bubble gum, frozen BW are great (but the tanks that get frozen bloodworms are the nastiest, even if pre-rinsed)..Daphnia then is my preffered choice for obvious water quall reasons, followed by blackworms, then red-worms (anything that can remain alive underwater as long as possible)..microworms live about 24hrs submerged, so they aren't bad either...Mostly my aphy get BBS, Daphnia & chopped blackworms and occasionally whiteworm/grindals (I've learned this from recieving nice fish from ya'll then asking...NTM reading here on KT) ...My FP's get flake, dried or frozen bloodworms 3X week, and chopped earthworms, occasional daphnia the rest ...Epi's & Austrolebias eat anything/everything but flake...Isolated fry/juvies get micro's, cyclop-eaze, BBS, grindal, then "daphnia water", then whatever the adults eat...fry "in tank" are on thier own...

Anyways, WHEW...that took some time....still awake? ....happy new years

Ken



From: "Panchax1957 at aol_com" <Panchax1957 at aol_com>
To: killietalk at aka_org
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2007 10:41:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Hung over


Actually, I was thinking of taking some tanks down.
Not getting out of killies at all, just decided to scale back just a bit,  as 
we all know how labor intensive keeping many species at once can be.
I was also thinking about switching over to the "natural method" as opposed  
to egg picking.
Any thoughts?  

Ray  Suydam
AKA # 07726
Facility Supervisor
Schwans Home Food  Service
Santa Maria, CA.

Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
Modify your subscription at http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk

Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
Modify your subscription at http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk