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Re: [Killietalk] Thanks but No Thanks
As a killie newbie, I must say.....the stuff that has transiped over the last week or so, is exactly why I got out of discus. I have not ruled AKA out, but I just thought I'd share another view from a newcomer.
Rich
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Laura Bauman" <fsulawlb at comcast_net>
> I have just asked to be unsubscribed from this list. I joined the AKA and
> subscribed to killietalk to learn about killifish in hopes that I could
> responsibly start a killi tank. In the emails I've bothered to peruse, I've
> read nothing but political garbage and rantings about a conference. How
> educational.
>
> Fortunately, I did receive the AKA handbook for beginners, so all is not
> lost. I just wanted to share a newcomers take on the helpfulness and
> welcoming feeling of your group. I will no longer receive these messages, no
> replies back to me will probably not be transmitted.
>
> Laura in Florida
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: killietalk-bounces+fsulawlb=comcast_net at aka.org
> [mailto:killietalk-bounces+fsulawlb=comcast_net at aka.org] On Behalf Of
> killietalk-request at aka_org
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 9:49 AM
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Subject: Killietalk Digest, Vol 35, Issue 8
>
> Send Killietalk mailing list submissions to
> killietalk at aka_org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/killietalk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> killietalk-request at aka_org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Killietalk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: 1st Conventioneer's (fishscatterer at comcast_net)
> 2. Re: 1st Conventioneer's (Mark R)
> 3. Why new members leave and an idea for new members (L. Langione)
> 4. June ARK Meeting (Allan Semeit)
> 5. Mentoring newcomers is great idea. (Harry Specht)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 04:44:28 +0000
> From: fishscatterer at comcast_net
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] 1st Conventioneer's
> To: killifish discussion list
>
> You are right, Erny, many people are missing the point. Why is a person
> long KNOWN for his arrogance and many rude/curt reponses here on Killietalk
> is elected to our BOT? (not for me to name him, Erny can tell you, though
> most of you can figure out who it is). Maybe this person would have the
> decency to apologize for his inappropriate behavior and remarks to one of
> our AKA members, but from all I've heard from other members and a few of
> his responses to people here on Killietalk, I doubt it. We had 2 BOT
> members resign within a short period of time of each other, you have to
> wonder if they felt "pushed" off the BOT. Hard to know, still some good
> members serving on the BOT despite one who probably should not be
> serving--great killie knowledge but lacking in skill dealing with membership
> in an appropriate manner.
>
> Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention, Erny, hopefully more
> people will understand what you are getting at.
>
> Jim Hinkle
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Erny"
> > I'm not sure where some of the responses are coming from.
> > The situation has nothing to do with being impatient to get the
> > JAKA; it has nothing to do with the volunteer efforts of the BOT
> > and other people; has nothing to do with "picking a fight" or
> > "broadcasting insults"; it has to do with an inappropriate response
> > and insult by a BOT member in response to a question addressed
> > to the editor of JAKA. If you would like I can send you all of the
> > e-mail. It really makes no difference; I'm simply waiting for this BOT
> > member to make good on his offer to buy me out.
> >
> > EM
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Bulterman"
> > To: "killifish discussion list"
> > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 11:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Killietalk] 1st Conventioneer's
> >
> >
> > >I learned two important things from my training as an auditor in public
> > > accounting: 1. know what to hold on to and what to let go of (evidence).
> > > 2. To get the right answers I need to talk to the right
> people.
> > >
> > > There are 9 members of the BOT including the Chairman. If one person
> > > upsets
> > > you consider perhaps trying another person. I believe you have my
> e-mail
> > > address?
> > >
> > > JoeB
> > >
> > > --- Erny wrote:
> > >
> > >> There also were some personal issues that the editor, Mr. Ostrow needed
> > >> to attend to. He informed me of this, I expressed my appreciation and
> > >> suggested
> > >> that keeping the membership informed would be appreciated. Shortly
> after
> > >> that
> > >> I received my disease designation and offer of buyout from a BOT
> member.
> > >> The moral of the incident is, don't ask questions.
> > >>
> > >> EM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Joe Bulterman"
> > >> To: "killifish discussion list"
> > >> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:32 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] 1st Conventioneer's
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > My understanding of the delay in the JAKA was that there was a
> > >> > personnel
> > >> > change/addition to the JAKA staff and there is another change
> currently
> > >> > in
> > >> > the
> > >> > works. Hopefully this change won't affect the timing of future
> JAKA's.
> > >> > Over the years I have been involved in many a heated debate involving
> > >> > issues,
> > >> > real or imagined, affecting the AKA. Now that I live overseas and am
> > >> > distant
> > >> > from many of those prior thoughts, I think I have calmed down a
> little
> > >> > and
> > >> > I
> > >> > can see the big picture a little more clearly - or so it appears.
> > >> > Anyone can e-mail me as to the current workings of the BOT and I will
> > >> > answer
> > >> > honestly to the best of my understanding. Personally, I tend to
> error
> > >> > on
> > >> > too
> > >> > much transparancy.
> > >> >
> > >> > JoeB
> > >> >
> > >> > --- Erny wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> That is the offer I received from a BOT member after
> > >> >> I had asked the editor why JAKA was running two
> > >> >> issues behind. All you have to do is question something
> > >> >> and you receive a disease designation and an offer to
> > >> >> be bought out. Try it; see if it works for you
> > >> >> EM
> > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> >> From: "Tom Payne"
> > >> >> To: "killifish discussion list"
> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 4:50 PM
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] 1st Conventioneer's
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > "send you a check from my personal account to make a cancer
> > >> >> > like you go away".
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Huh? What am I missing here?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > --
> > >> >> > Tom Payne
> > >> >> > 10100 Hoover Woods Rd.
> > >> >> > Galena, Ohio 43021
> > >> >> > 740-965-9311
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that
> > >> >> > matter."
> > >> >> > --Martin Luther King, Jr.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Join the AKA at
> > >> >> > http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > >> >> > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > >> >> > Modify your subscription at
> > >> >> > http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Join the AKA at
> http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > >> >> Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > >> >> Modify your subscription at
> > >> >> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Joe Bulterman, CPA/CELTA
> > >> > Raffles-H.U. International College
> > >> > No 2 Teaching Bldg, 3rd Floor, Huizhou University
> > >> > Jinshan Lake Campus, Mazhuang, Huizhou City
> > >> > Guangdong Province, CHINA 516000
> > >> > +86 1341 453 9710 (Mobil)
> > >> > +86 752 252 9498 (office)
> > >> > Join the AKA at
> http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > >> > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > >> > Modify your subscription at
> > >> > http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > >> Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > >> Modify your subscription at
> > >> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe Bulterman, CPA/CELTA
> > > Raffles-H.U. International College
> > > No 2 Teaching Bldg, 3rd Floor, Huizhou University
> > > Jinshan Lake Campus, Mazhuang, Huizhou City
> > > Guangdong Province, CHINA 516000
> > > +86 1341 453 9710 (Mobil)
> > > +86 752 252 9498 (office)
> > > Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > > Modify your subscription at
> > > http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > >
> >
> >
> > Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > Modify your subscription at
> > http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 23:02:30 -0600
> From: "Mark R"
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] 1st Conventioneer's
> To: "killifish discussion list"
>
> C'mon guys, it's all about the fish.
>
> On 6/2/06, fishscatterer at comcast_net wrote:
> >
> > You are right, Erny, many people are missing the point. Why is a person
> > long KNOWN for his arrogance and many rude/curt reponses here on
> Killietalk
> > is elected to our BOT? (not for me to name him, Erny can tell you, though
> > most of you can figure out who it is). Maybe this person would have the
> > decency to apologize for his inappropriate behavior and remarks to one of
> > our AKA members, but from all I've heard from other members and a few of
> > his responses to people here on Killietalk, I doubt it. We had 2 BOT
> > members resign within a short period of time of each other, you have to
> > wonder if they felt "pushed" off the BOT. Hard to know, still some good
> > members serving on the BOT despite one who probably should not be
> > serving--great killie knowledge but lacking in skill dealing with
> membership
> > in an appropriate manner.
> >
> > Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention, Erny, hopefully more
> > people will understand what you are getting at.
> >
> > Jim Hinkle
> >
> >
> > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: "Erny"
> > > I'm not sure where some of the responses are coming from.
> > > The situation has nothing to do with being impatient to get the
> > > JAKA; it has nothing to do with the volunteer efforts of the BOT
> > > and other people; has nothing to do with "picking a fight" or
> > > "broadcasting insults"; it has to do with an inappropriate response
> > > and insult by a BOT member in response to a question addressed
> > > to the editor of JAKA. If you would like I can send you all of the
> > > e-mail. It really makes no difference; I'm simply waiting for this BOT
> > > member to make good on his offer to buy me out.
> > >
> > > EM
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joe Bulterman"
> > > To: "killifish discussion list"
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 11:40 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Killietalk] 1st Conventioneer's
> > >
> > >
> > > >I learned two important things from my training as an auditor in public
> > > > accounting: 1. know what to hold on to and what to let go of
> > (evidence).
> > > > 2. To get the right answers I need to talk to the right
> > people.
> > > >
> > > > There are 9 members of the BOT including the Chairman. If one person
> > > > upsets
> > > > you consider perhaps trying another person. I believe you have my
> > e-mail
> > > > address?
> > > >
> > > > JoeB
> > > >
> > > > --- Erny wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> There also were some personal issues that the editor, Mr. Ostrow
> > needed
> > > >> to attend to. He informed me of this, I expressed my appreciation and
> > > >> suggested
> > > >> that keeping the membership informed would be appreciated. Shortly
> > after
> > > >> that
> > > >> I received my disease designation and offer of buyout from a BOT
> > member.
> > > >> The moral of the incident is, don't ask questions.
> > > >>
> > > >> EM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Joe Bulterman"
> > > >> To: "killifish discussion list"
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:32 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] 1st Conventioneer's
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > My understanding of the delay in the JAKA was that there was a
> > > >> > personnel
> > > >> > change/addition to the JAKA staff and there is another change
> > currently
> > > >> > in
> > > >> > the
> > > >> > works. Hopefully this change won't affect the timing of future
> > JAKA's.
> > > >> > Over the years I have been involved in many a heated debate
> > involving
> > > >> > issues,
> > > >> > real or imagined, affecting the AKA. Now that I live overseas and
> > am
> > > >> > distant
> > > >> > from many of those prior thoughts, I think I have calmed down a
> > little
> > > >> > and
> > > >> > I
> > > >> > can see the big picture a little more clearly - or so it appears.
> > > >> > Anyone can e-mail me as to the current workings of the BOT and I
> > will
> > > >> > answer
> > > >> > honestly to the best of my understanding. Personally, I tend to
> > error
> > > >> > on
> > > >> > too
> > > >> > much transparancy.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > JoeB
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- Erny wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> That is the offer I received from a BOT member after
> > > >> >> I had asked the editor why JAKA was running two
> > > >> >> issues behind. All you have to do is question something
> > > >> >> and you receive a disease designation and an offer to
> > > >> >> be bought out. Try it; see if it works for you
> > > >> >> EM
> > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> >> From: "Tom Payne"
> > > >> >> To: "killifish discussion list"
> > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 4:50 PM
> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] 1st Conventioneer's
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > "send you a check from my personal account to make a cancer
> > > >> >> > like you go away".
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Huh? What am I missing here?
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > --
> > > >> >> > Tom Payne
> > > >> >> > 10100 Hoover Woods Rd.
> > > >> >> > Galena, Ohio 43021
> > > >> >> > 740-965-9311
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
> > that
> > > >> >> > matter."
> > > >> >> > --Martin Luther King, Jr.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Join the AKA at
> > > >> >> > http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > > >> >> > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > > >> >> > Modify your subscription at
> > > >> >> > http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Join the AKA at
> > http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > > >> >> Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > > >> >> Modify your subscription at
> > > >> >> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Joe Bulterman, CPA/CELTA
> > > >> > Raffles-H.U. International College
> > > >> > No 2 Teaching Bldg, 3rd Floor, Huizhou University
> > > >> > Jinshan Lake Campus, Mazhuang, Huizhou City
> > > >> > Guangdong Province, CHINA 516000
> > > >> > +86 1341 453 9710 (Mobil)
> > > >> > +86 752 252 9498 (office)
> > > >> > Join the AKA at
> > http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > > >> > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > > >> > Modify your subscription at
> > > >> > http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9
> > .
> > > >> Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > > >> Modify your subscription at
> > > >> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Joe Bulterman, CPA/CELTA
> > > > Raffles-H.U. International College
> > > > No 2 Teaching Bldg, 3rd Floor, Huizhou University
> > > > Jinshan Lake Campus, Mazhuang, Huizhou City
> > > > Guangdong Province, CHINA 516000
> > > > +86 1341 453 9710 (Mobil)
> > > > +86 752 252 9498 (office)
> > > > Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > > > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > > > Modify your subscription at
> > > > http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > > Modify your subscription at
> > > http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> >
> >
> > Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > Modify your subscription at
> > http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 02:05:37 -0400
> From: "L. Langione"
> Subject: [Killietalk] Why new members leave and an idea for new
> members
> To: "killifish discussion list"
>
> Hello,
>
> I have been following the talk concerning the turn-over of new
> members and the size of the AKA membership. As membership chairman, I really
> do not think we have a serious problem with the size of the membership. We
> basically have the same amount of members as the ACA. And by the way folks,
> the ACA does not have or publish a roster. As for turn over, you will always
> have attrition with any group. I have been doing this job for almost a year,
> and here are some reasons people have given me for dropping out of the AKA.
> These were from e-mails that I sent to people who did not re-join. They went
> back to school, got divorced, thought they would make this their hobby but
> realized they didn't have the time needed, some died, moved and sold
> everything they had, joined to get killifish and were not able to find what
> they wanted, just got tired of their fish, went into saltwater instead of
> freshwater, some were battling illness, went back into cichlids, decided to
> down size, decided to breed dogs instead and I have to spend more time with
> my family. Only one negative response and it was he joined a local affiliate
> club and couldn't see spending $26.00 a year to belong to the AKA anymore. I
> really think there is entirely to much emphasis on playing the blame game
> and attacking certain people for something that really is not a huge
> problem.
> One of the biggest reasons I have heard from people in the past year
> for joining is, "I used to belong to the AKA many years ago, and now that my
> kids are grown I am going to get back into killies." This is a huge trend,
> people coming back. For the past several years, the freshwater hobby has
> been in a slump. We are starting to see a come back in the hobby.
> One of the suggestions I made to be discussed at the convention,( I
> could not attend this year), was to come up with a group of experienced
> killifish keepers to mentor new members. There are a lot of "old timers" and
> "experienced youngins" out there who could be on this committee. Call it the
> AKA" Welcoming Committee" As I enter new members, I could forward their
> e-mail address to the committee and they could e-mail the new member and
> answer their questions. And don't give me this crap that that's what
> killitalk is for. I'm talking about a one on one type of contact. New
> members are sometimes apprehensive to ask questions because they are afraid
> of looking stupid. But on a one to one basis they would not feel as
> intimidated.
> I am really tired of all this finger pointing and trash talking. It
> is about the fish AND the people. The fish we keep are more exclusive than
> and other type of fish in the hobby. You go into any LFS or big box store
> and you will find 20 species of cichlids, 20 types of livebearers, all types
> of rainbow fish, scads of tetras, lots of catfish but rarely any killifish.
> It is up to us to educate people about killies.
> This is a good organization and I say we can make it better. But
> this crap of arguing does not solve any problems.Let's see if the e-mail
> promotes a more positive approach to this whole situation. In closing I
> nominate Erny May, Harry Specht and Curt Smith to be part of the Welcoming
> Committee.
>
>
> Lonny Langione - AKA Membership Chairman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Curtis Smith"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 8:10 PM
> Subject: [Killietalk] greeting group
>
>
> > I think there's a lot of merit in Lee's suggestion. I, for one, would
> > gladly volunteer to greet and steer first time attendees. Such members
> > could work in conjuntion with the registration table and meet "first-time"
> > attendees when they register. Once they are introduced and on speaking
> > terms with several members, the greeters couyld return to the registration
> > table to pick up another first-timer.
> >
> > I think there may be merit in reserving a space or two at each banquet
> table
> > for these members as well.
> >
> > By the way, I observed Dr. Specht on Friday taking the time to speak at
> > length with each person that registered. And, they did have special
> > markings on their name tag. You can't blame Christina for not
> introducing
> > them to others as she was a first-time attendee too and didn't know we
> > rogues until later. The Florida group had their act together as the
> > pre-registered members had their bags of materials lined up, even with the
> > numbered auction plate inside. I think I did offend Christina by calling
> > her the "bag lady", but it was all in fun pretty lady and no harm
> intended!
> >
> > I especially sought out Lisa as I knew she was coming and I also knew this
> > was her first time. Hopefully I introduced her to all the right people
> and
> > even ate breakfast with her once. By the way, I still owe her a cup of
> > coffee! I looked for Loraine but never saw her.
> >
> > Curt Smith
> >
> >
> > Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/aka/modules/content/index.php?id=9.
> > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > Modify your subscription at
> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 06:08:30 -0700
> From: "Allan Semeit"
> Subject: [Killietalk] June ARK Meeting
> To: "AKA KillieTalk"
>
> The June meeting of the Arizona Rivulin Keepers will be on Saturday, June
> 10th. We will gather at LaBella's Pizza and Pasta (NW corner of Rural and
> Ray Roads) in south Tempe about 6:30 PM. The meeting is free and, if you
> are in the area, we would welcome the opportunity to greet you.
>
> The first half hour is a time to set up, socialize, and munch on Italian
> food (at your cost). We will follow that with a short business meeting (if
> needed), a raffle featuring an assortment of products from several
> manufacturers, a video program about killies, and then our Trade Table.
> This month we will supplement the Trade Table with a variety of killies
> purchased by the club at the AKA Convention. All attendees are encouraged
> to bring their killies, other unusual small fish, aquatic plants, live food
> cultures, etc. for the Trade Table.
>
> If you can attend, we'll see you next Saturday!
>
> Allan from Arizona
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:50:32 -0400
> From: "Harry Specht"
> Subject: [Killietalk] Mentoring newcomers is great idea.
> To: "killifish discussion list"
>
> Good idea, Lonny. It was tried many years ago, but never really implemented
> for some reason. After all, having an experienced person discuss and a dvise
>
> a newcomer would be most helpful to prevent disappointment over losing new
> killifish. Truly, the whole premise of the AKA was to bring together folks
> interested in killifish to learn from one another and exchange these
> wonderful fish.
>
> I would suggest, Lonny, you conosider sending the info on a newcomer to an
> affiliate club in his area -- or as close as possible. Permit the affiliate
> club president recommend a member to act as mentor as he knows his (or
> her) club members.. A letter or note to affilaite clubs for their input
> about this scheme is in order before trying this system At any rate,
> remember the KISS priniciple. It works
>
>
>
> Harry Specht
>
>
> Sarasota, FL
>
>
>
>
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> End of Killietalk Digest, Vol 35, Issue 8
> *****************************************
>
>
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