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Re: [Killietalk] Decapsulated brine eliminate Hydra? (wasRe:Artemiaprice comparison) (was Re: Hatching decappedartemia)

To: "'killifish discussion list'" <killietalk at aka_org>
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Decapsulated brine eliminate Hydra? (wasRe:Artemiaprice comparison) (was Re: Hatching decappedartemia)
From: "Scott Douglass" <scottdouglass2000 at yahoo_com.au>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:16:56 +0800
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Markus, sounds like you are getting a Hydra obsession there ;)

The answer to your question is that the Hydra have stinging cells that work
better on soft bodies eg newly hatched brine shrimp. They can still catch
Daphnia etc, just it takes a lot more work due to the hard exoskeleton.

Also another observation, BBS are kind of dumb and just swim any old how
especially to light. Daphnia et al are more aware and will generally try and
avoid danger. Even fry have to "hunt" Daphnia Moina etc, but BBS just swims
straight into them.

Scott,
Singapore.

-----Original Message-----
From: killietalk-bounces+scottdouglass2000=yahoo_com.au at aka.org
[mailto:killietalk-bounces+scottdouglass2000=yahoo_com.au at aka.org] On Behalf
Of Markus Brown
Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 5:06 PM
To: killifish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Decapsulated brine eliminate Hydra?
(wasRe:Artemiaprice comparison) (was Re: Hatching decappedartemia)

So, perhaps there is something particular that the Hydra like in newly 
hatched bbs and not Moina, daphnia, copepods and grindal worms and some 
chopped black worms? I cannot argue, what I don't experience in this 
situation. I agree, it is unusual that hydra have not made an appearance in 
your tanks Barry, but then again, this hobby is loaded with hard to explain 
phenomenon i.e: bacterial crashes, disease frequency on healthy fish and , 
lest not forget belly sliding??? There are many theories, all containing 
some fact, but singly weak, but as a whole, there is a pattern.

My point is that unless the hydra get a particular protein or mineral that 
they do not get from other foods, then it is unreasonable to believe that 
they would only flourish from one food. If these are truly fresh water 
species, they would feed primarily on copepods. I have several species of 
these fluttering about my system, but alas, as I stated, only the tanks I 
feed brine shrimp babies, bloom the hydra.

I agree though. Seems like my theory is blasted;)

Thank you everyone who argued my question thoroughly!

Markus

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barry Cooper" <bjc3 at centurytel_net>
To: "killifish discussion list" <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Decapsulated brine eliminate Hydra? (wasRe:Artemia

price comparison) (was Re: Hatching decappedartemia)


> Trouble is, Markus, at least in my opinion, you haven't eliminated the
> the most likely reason, which most people accept, and that is that live
> bbs make wonderful food for hydra. I suspect you have them in your tanks
> at very low levels and those that are fed live bbs get a bloom. You can
> test this, perhaps, by feeding some tanks with bbs hatched after
> decapsulating, others with regular bs.
>
> I could counteract you observation by saying that I feed lots of bbs and
> I never see hydra. If they come in on the cysts, why would that be?
>
> Barry
>
> Barry J. Cooper
> Sweet Home, OR 97386
>
>
>
> Markus Brown wrote:
>
>>Ok.
>>
>>Consider this. In 20 years of keeping fresh water and saltwater fish, the
>>only tanks that have had Hydra blooms are those tanks which have received
>>live brine shrimp. There is no confusion for which tanks get what, for the
>>only tanks to get bbs are the tanks with only babies fish in them. Many of
>>the tanks I have cared for have been fed live daphnia from outdoor ponds
>>which have hydra from time to time. These tanks have never showed a bloom 
>>of
>>hydra. Lucky, I know, but relavant for my argumant.
>>
>>Saltwater hydra, which is seen often on  live rock, can withstand hours of
>>fresh water dips and can even further survive permanently. I took a piece 
>>of
>>old Jakarta live rock and put it in clean, pure fresh water to identify 
>>some
>>of the animals living in the rock as an exercise for a class I mentored a
>>few years back. After six plus weeks of soaking, all basic life was 
>>recorded
>>as dead, except, yep, the hydra.
>>
>>
>>Markus
>>As Arthur C.Doyle quated for Sherlock, "When you have eliminated all which
>>is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the
>>truth".
>>And, as been said on this very list, "Time for my flame retardent
>>underwear!!"
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Barry Cooper" <bjc3 at centurytel_net>
>>To: "killifish discussion list" <killietalk at aka_org>
>>Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 7:27 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Decapsulated brine eliminate Hydra? 
>>(wasRe:Artemia
>>price comparison) (was Re: Hatching decappedartemia)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Sorry Markus, but I agree with Gerry. The idea of Hydra coming in on
>>>brine shrimp cysts has been raised before but is pretty much
>>>discredited. It is very unlikely that a species that grows in a salt
>>>lake would become established in a fresh water tank. Most people
>>>attribute blooms of hydra to the bbs providing food for them. At least
>>>personally I don't accept the theory of hydra coming in on bs cysts.
>>>
>>>Barry
>>>
>>>Barry J. Cooper
>>>Sweet Home, OR 97386
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Markus Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Gerry
>>>>
>>>>I appreciate your opinion, but for me, the only vector can be brine 
>>>>shrimp
>>>>eggs. I have never had hydra in any baby/adult tanks that receive no 
>>>>bbs.
>>>>When I feed bbs to my fish, there is NO left over. So few bbs are added 
>>>>to
>>>>the tank, they are consumed within minutes. If I want a much longer
>>>>feeding,
>>>>I use Moina or sifted daphnia.
>>>>
>>>>As far as being in my source water, that would be very unlikely. To 
>>>>begin
>>>>with, my source water is filtered through a 5 micron prefilter and two
>>>>carbon block filters, a 75gal/day R.O membrane and then a D.I filter 
>>>>bed.
>>>>My
>>>>tap is very soft, with almost no mineral content, aside from a minimal
>>>>amount of caco3. Hydra do not last in soft water in my experiance. They
>>>>reproduce only so long and then die off. I messed around with this
>>>>phenomenon a wile back when I found them in a couple of a baby tanks. I
>>>>added a few dozen hydra to static water, with a smattering of bbs. Even
>>>>with
>>>>the addition of bbs daily, they deceased in a few weeks. I know this is
>>>>rather "ghetto" of an experiment, but it was telling of my previous
>>>>thoughts.
>>>>
>>>>I do wonder if they are added to the baby tanks along with the 
>>>>un-hatched
>>>>brine? That's why I asked if decapsulating them and better separating 
>>>>the
>>>>eggs, from the hatched naupolii was better for avoiding Hydra.
>>>>
>>>>Markus
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>From: "Gerald Rosenbeck" <grosenbeck at hotmail_com>
>>>>To: <killietalk at aka_org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:15 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Decapsulated brine eliminate Hydra?
>>>>(wasRe:Artemia
>>>>price comparison) (was Re: Hatching decappedartemia)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I seriously doubt if the hydra infestation is coming from  the brine
>>>>>shrimp
>>>>>eggs. More likely your source water or very minor infestations in your
>>>>>fish
>>>>>tanks. All that food , they multiply like craze.
>>>>>
>>>>>Gerry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: "Markus Brown" <thefishbiologist at charter_net>
>>>>>>Reply-To: killifish discussion list <killietalk at aka_org>
>>>>>>To: "killifish discussion list" <killietalk at aka_org>
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Decapsulated brine eliminate Hydra?
>>>>>>(wasRe:Artemia price comparison) (was Re: Hatching decappedartemia)
>>>>>>Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:18:45 -0800
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here is another question for this thread:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Does decapsulated Brine Shrimp eliminate the spread of Hydra?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have almost never seen Hydra in any tanks other than those I feed 
>>>>>>baby
>>>>>>brine too. Hasnt been a real problm toward my fish, just one more 
>>>>>>thing
>>>>>>I
>>>>>>have to wipe off the glass;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Markus
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "wm crash" <wm_crash at hotmail_com>
>>>>>>To: <killietalk at aka_org>
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:28 PM
>>>>>>Subject: [Killietalk] Artemia price comparison (was Re: Hatching
>>>>>>decappedartemia)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Using the advertised numbers of brineshrimpdirect it works out that
>>>>>>>decapped
>>>>>>>brine eggs cost 5.2 times more than normal brine eggs to produce the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>same
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>amount of feedable artemia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Assumptions made:
>>>>>>>- premium grade artemia has a 70% yield due to non-ideal conditions 
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>due
>>>>>>>to the fact that not all hatched artmia are harvested and fed
>>>>>>>- decapsulated artemia has 100% yield because the ones that don't 
>>>>>>>hatch
>>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>mixed with the hatched ones and in general, fry will eat them anyhow
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>when
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>mixed in with the hatched ones
>>>>>>>- shipping cost was not factored in
>>>>>>>- price for the 1lb can was used for normal eggs, and for the 400mL
>>>>>>>container for decapped eggs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>take care,
>>>>>>>wm_crash, the friendly hooligan
>>>>>>>AKA #08840, SAA #162, SVAS #120, HOOLIGAN #1
>>>>>>>San Jose, CA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Join the AKA at http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9
>>>>>>>Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
>>>>>>>Modify your subscription at
>>>>>>>http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Join the AKA at http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9
>>>>>>Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
>>>>>>Modify your subscription at
>>>>>>http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>_________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Join the AKA at http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9
>>>>Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
>>>>Modify your subscription at
>>>>http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Join the AKA at http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9
>>>Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Join the AKA at http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9
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>>
>>
>>
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References:
- Re: [Killietalk] Decapsulated brine eliminate Hydra? (wasRe:Artemia price comparison) (was Re: Hatching decappedartemia)
  - From: Markus Brown

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