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Re: [Killietalk] Killietalk Digest, Vol 30, Issue 164
Hello all,
Since there has been a discussion on the assorted mediums used in incubating eggs ,I thought I would touch on some of the experiences I had.It may or may not help you it would depend on the availability in your region. In the early 50's I always collected live spagnum moss,the precurser to peat.I used it for a number of different genera,of fishes.I would allow it to dry and then make 2 pattie like forms and then place annual eggs on one side and then sandwich the eggs with the second piece.They were then placed in a bag,marked,and put away.From time to time I could open the bag and open the "sandwich" and take a peek.It would allow me to view the contents and give me the progress on development.
Any eggs that fungused, could be picked off, and removed.
I used this system for sending eggs in letters.It could be sealed in a small bag and placed between the pages of a letter. If you look at Scheels first book, Rivulins of The Old World, page 280 and 281,you will see a photo of a killie ,titled A.lujae.I sent him that fish with that method.I always had problems with eggs that Scheel sent to me as he would place them in small glass tubes,and, if a few eggs fungused,it would usually kill everything off as they were sealed tightly. The procedure that I used would allow the passage of oxygen as the seal was not air tight,and consequently more apt to be successful. Many years ago it was extremely difficult to send eggs in packages,to Brazil,the postal authorities would destroy any packages that had fish marked on it.Thats why I used that system,I was able to get anumber of Nothos. into Brazil by using the letter system,and it worked. I believe you can purchase dry spagnum in garden centers. I know ,here in N.J. we do have it av!
ailable. N.J has about 26 different spagnum mosses.Its a very unique plant and I believe I did write about this some years a go. We'll have to put friend Lee Harper on the case.he always seems to find these things.
Rosario LaCorte
-------------- Original message --------------
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: PBS program on Death Valley pupfish (Tom Grady)
> 2. Re: PBS program on Death Valley pupfish (Barry Cooper)
> 3. Re: Oak leaves (Al Anderson)
> 4. Coir, peat, smaller eggs and oak leaves. (Wright Huntley)
> 5. Re: Grindals and gnats (Ken)
> 6. Peat/coir (Marc Weiss)
> 7. Re: Grindals and gnats (ccarlile at aol_com)
> 8. Re: Egg size & storage mediums (Ken)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:57:35 -0500
> From: "Tom Grady"
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] PBS program on Death Valley pupfish
> To: , "killifish discussion list"
>
>
> Dennis - if you want: send the pupfish part as .mpg to killienutz.com - I
> can make it available as an educational download ...
>
> or send it to me at killienutz at killienutz_com ... for same posting.
>
> Tom
>
> KillieNutz Website - http://www.killienutz.com
> News & Information constantly updated.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Heltzel [mailto:killies at fishroom_net]
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 1:31 PM
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] PBS program on Death Valley pupfish
>
>
> > Me too! If can upload to some where we can download. For education
> purpose.
> >
> > Some one send me part of it sometime back. But only the beginning part.
> >
> > Bruce J. Turner, Dept. Biological Sciences, VPISU, Blacksburg, VA 24061
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Much to my chagrin, I missed this..! If anyone has a tape, cd, or dvd
> of it
> >>and would be willing to send me a
> >>copy (for my own use, of course), I would be much obliged.
>
> Did anyone get this recorded yet? I just taped it a few days ago. The
> quality is not great, but it's viewable. I can make a DVD copy of the
> entire hour episode if someone wants it all, or I can extract the 5 or so
> minutes that pertain to the pupfish (Devil's Hole and Salt Creek) into an
> mpg file and upload it somewhere.
>
> If someone's already done it, I won't waste my time.
> If you really want it, email me privately (dennis at fishroom.net)
>
> --
> Dennis Heltzel
> Keystone Killy Group
> SE Pennsylvania, USA
>
> Join the AKA at http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:04:13 -0800
> From: Barry Cooper
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] PBS program on Death Valley pupfish
> To: killifish discussion list
>
> Hmm! Copyright, anyone? Are you sure you can freely upload that material
> without seeking permission? We can, of course, put it on the AKA site,
> but I'd want to have written permission first. By the way, I've ordered
> the DVD of the program, which in in transit.
>
> Barry
>
> Barry J. Cooper
> Sweet Home, OR 97386
>
>
>
> Tom Grady wrote:
>
> >Dennis - if you want: send the pupfish part as .mpg to killienutz.com - I
> >can make it available as an educational download ...
> >
> >or send it to me at killienutz at killienutz_com ... for same posting.
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >KillieNutz Website - http://www.killienutz.com
> >News & Information constantly updated.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Dennis Heltzel [mailto:killies at fishroom_net]
> >Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 1:31 PM
> >To: killietalk at aka_org
> >Subject: Re: [Killietalk] PBS program on Death Valley pupfish
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Me too! If can upload to some where we can download. For education
> >>
> >>
> >purpose.
> >
> >
> >>Some one send me part of it sometime back. But only the beginning part.
> >>
> >>Bruce J. Turner, Dept. Biological Sciences, VPISU, Blacksburg, VA 24061
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Much to my chagrin, I missed this..! If anyone has a tape, cd, or dvd
> >>>
> >>>
> >of it
> >
> >
> >>>and would be willing to send me a
> >>>copy (for my own use, of course), I would be much obliged.
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >Did anyone get this recorded yet? I just taped it a few days ago. The
> >quality is not great, but it's viewable. I can make a DVD copy of the
> >entire hour episode if someone wants it all, or I can extract the 5 or so
> >minutes that pertain to the pupfish (Devil's Hole and Salt Creek) into an
> >mpg file and upload it somewhere.
> >
> >If someone's already done it, I won't waste my time.
> >If you really want it, email me privately (dennis at fishroom.net)
> >
> >--
> >Dennis Heltzel
> >Keystone Killy Group
> >SE Pennsylvania, USA
> >
> >Join the AKA at http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9
> >Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> >Modify your subscription at
> >http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:06:51 -0500
> From: "Al Anderson"
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Oak leaves
> To: "killifish discussion list"
>
> Do they come with a Hockey stick and a puck at that price?
> :> } sorry but I could not resist that.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Elson or Mary Frauley"
> To: ; "killifish discussion list"
>
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 11:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Oak leaves
>
>
> >
> > As a service to the hobby, I am willing to sell maple leaves for one
> > dollar
> > each. It's the least I can do, eh?
> >
> > I have prime specimens from my personal stock, flash frozen in November
> > and
> > preserved in ice ever since.
> >
> > Gary in Canada.
> >
> >
> > Join the AKA at http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9
> > Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > Modify your subscription at
> > http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:21:38 -0800
> From: Wright Huntley
> Subject: [Killietalk] Coir, peat, smaller eggs and oak leaves.
> To: killifish discussion list
>
> Ken raises some good points/questions.
>
> Coir:
>
> Webster defines it as: "** a stiff coarse fiber from the outer husk of a
> coconut" Unfortunately, that is not what is sold here in the compressed
> bricks that are called that at the nursery. It is a little chopped mix
> of those fibers and mostly coarsely-ground shell that is, IMO, not a
> suitable medium for eggs. The shell bits are sharp and harsh, and can
> easily damage eggs unless the mixture is handled with extraordinary
> care. Even then, I suspect minor egg damage causes an unusual number of
> defective babies.
>
> I rejected its use as a proper egg-storage medium long before working
> through my first brick. It doesn't surprise me that eggs shipped in it
> don't do well, or that there are a lot of belly sliders and bent spines
> among fry hatched from it.
>
> Peat:
>
> OTOH, sphagnum peat is mostly soft and gentle on eggs, though I have
> tried some pelletized, granular products that are as bad as so-called
> "coir." For most small-quantity uses, I prefer the Jiffy pellets,
> ignoring what number is on them. I always boil and thoroughly rinse them
> to get rid of the added lime and all other more-readily-soluble
> additives. Baled peat is harsher, as it usually contains twigs and stem
> pieces that can damage eggs. It usually can be sorted out by hand, but
> the process is a bit tedious.
>
> Since fibrous peat is priced right up there with platinum and gold, I
> have found the shredded redwood product called "monkey fur" in the
> landscape trade (and originally advocated by Bill Gallagher) is a
> perfectly useful substitute at $2-4 for a big bag instead of $7 for 2
> grams from Fluval/Hagan, etc.. Again, boil and rinse to remove serious
> solubles and induce it to sink immediately.
>
> Smaller eggs:
>
> My experience with the smaller eggs behaving strangely has been mostly
> with semi-annuals of the sub-genus *Paludopanchax*. Unlike most E.
> African and SA Annuals, their eggs will tend to hatch in the peat,
> rather than stay in diapause indefinitely. I think they need to be
> watched much more carefully for development or they will suddenly be
> gone. Other semi-annual Fp. I'm not so sure about, but suspect they may
> behave in a similar way. Moisture may be more a factor than with Nothos.
>
> Other small eggs such as the *N. janpapi* I don't think behaved like
> that when I was keeping them. I think the genus matters a bit more than
> the egg size in how they go through the various diapause stages. Just a
> casual thought based on very limited observation.
>
> Oak leaves:
>
> CA Live Oaks have oval leaves with sharp spines along the edge. They are
> sort of evergreen, and the leaves typically don't turn colorful in the
> fall and drain out the nutrients like deciduous varieties. IMO, they are
> likely not good for aquaria. In some CA foothills, there are the
> eastern-style oaks with real acorns and the deeply serrated leaves that
> eventually fall in winter. I have collected and used those from
> alongside roads with no problems. [Years ago, I would have given my fish
> lead poisoning doing that!]
>
> Wright
>
> --
> Wright Huntley - Rt. 001 Box K36, Bishop CA 93514 - whuntley at verizon_net 760
> 937-2276 (mobile) 760 874-2000 (CA) or 941 866-0500 (FL).
>
> ?A journey of a thousand miles starts with an airline ticket.
> Unless you?re crazy? -- Chad Carter.
>
> http://www.self-gov.org/wspq.html
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:28:10 -0500
> From: "Ken"
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Grindals and gnats
> To: "'killifish discussion list'"
>
> Someone, sometime on this list suggested "Co-cultures" of grindal & redworms
> or whiteworms & redworms...Since then I've always had quite a few redworms
> in my soil based cultures. This is conjecture, but "I think" the constant
> turnover of the dirt by the redworms seems to disturb a healthy
> gnat/fly/mite culture from really establishing itself...all I know is its
> affects on the number of grindals & WW I get appears minimal (food goes much
> faster tho)
>
> KC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: killietalk-bounces at aka_org [mailto:killietalk-bounces at aka_org] On
> Behalf Of Barry Cooper
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:42 PM
> To: killifish discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Grindals and gnats
>
> My grindal cultures (on poly pads) run for many months, possibly well over a
> year. I've lost track of when I set them up.. I hardly ever change the water
> and I don't have any problems with mites or little flies. On the rare
> occasion when I see a few little flies in the culture I use the
> paradichlorbenzene trick. In my hands, it does eliminate them.
>
> The problem with changing cultures to get rid of flies is that you put
> maggots back in the new culture. The maggots are small, white and elongate,
> so are hard to tell from worms without close examination. I did have a big
> problem with flies way back in the old days when I used soil based cultures.
> To get rid of them in new cultures I actually (believe it or not) picked out
> individual worms under magnification from a group of worms in a little
> water. I drew them up into a small dropper, and transferred them to the
> "clean side". I then put the new cultures in small pillow cases with zip
> closures, to prevent access to any wild flies around the place. So you see
> why I find the PDCB easier.
>
> Barry
>
> Barry J. Cooper
> Sweet Home, OR 97386
>
>
>
> Charles & Sue Harrison wrote:
>
> >Here is a method that has worked for me for several summers. Of course
> >starting new cultures away from the infestation is a great trick and
> >needs to be done every 3 to 4 weeks. Another cover for the culture like
> >a leg of pantyhose works well also.
> >
> >http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/BagOfGringals/
> >
> >
> Join the AKA at http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9
> Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> Modify your subscription at
> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:27:47 -0500
> From: Marc Weiss
> Subject: [Killietalk] Peat/coir
> To: killietalk at aka_org
>
> KC
> The difference is that peat has already degraded (decomposed) into
> fulvic acid. Coir has not degraded and the tannic component, which
> is toxic, is higher. Coir from many sources also has a high salt
> content. Orchid growers find it a troublesome for that reason. Oak,
> ketapang leaves etc. must not be used fresh. They are to be allowed
> to fement on the ground for awhile. Ditto for black walnut which one
> has to be extra careful with. Applying alkaline water to things in
> quantities that don't allow the herbs to bring the pH down below
> neutral throws the fulvins to the humic state.
>
> FWIW,
> Marc
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:38:03 -0500
> From: ccarlile at aol_com
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Grindals and gnats
> To: killietalk at aka_org
>
> Would the maggots supply supplemental food for the fish/fry? Rob
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:41:50 -0500
> From: "Ken"
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Egg size & storage mediums
> To: "'killifish discussion list'"
>
> Scott,
> I always wondered how you folks oversees did with coir,,,
> I can't get much from it...and I admit it is VERY easy for us amateurs to
> draw incorrect conclusions from perfectly good observations...Mundane topic
> perhaps, but that "something" which is amiss here is probably interesting...
>
> So you are thinking it's the shipping stress which is inducing my poorer
> hatch results with eggs from Asia/SA? (you can see how I make the inference
> the bad actor is the coir)
> What might I ask are your water params locally? Temp, TDS, pH, alkalinity or
> whatever is probably important
> Furthermore, do you think it is possible then to take "certain" simps or
> annuals, and close them up in like a breather bag to duplicate some "gas/O2"
> tolerance or other params in water which might approximate similar
> "incubation friendly" conditions to "dry" peat/coir storage? (It'd be dang
> interesting & "profitable" to speculate further here, low risk/high reward
> anyway)
>
> KC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: killietalk-bounces+ken_combs=sbcglobal.net at aka.org
> [mailto:killietalk-bounces+ken_combs=sbcglobal.net at aka.org] On Behalf Of
> scott douglass
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 1:15 PM
> To: killifish discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Egg size & storage mediums
>
> Just to throw a spanner in the works and contradict everything, I just
> hatched some S.igneus with no peat and total water incubation. It was a
> mistake from some eggs passed to me with fish, the eggs were put into a fish
> bag with water straight from the breeding bowl and those fired clay pellets
> and almost no air with the intention of sorting it out when I got home.
> (Ronnie if you are reading they are your eggs - oops I forgot). Anyway I
> completely forgot about them until having a big clean up the yesterday and
> when I checked they were eyed up. So I tipped them all into a tray and
> within an hour had fry. There are some belly sliders there but a few good
> strong fry and I will know better in the next few days how they turn out,
> but so far it looks like a normal simp hatch.
> But that was development in a sealed bag 95% water and no peat. I would
> guess they are about 2 months or
> maybe more, I will have to check.
> The coir peat lots are using now as it is generally less messy, I normally
> use different types for different fish. For example, with simps I like to
> use soft and fine "real" peat but nothos I use coir it also messes up the
> water less, and in my experience the cleaner and more stable the water the
> easier nothos are. They are the one fish I dont slack off on maintainance.
> For nothos I really only put enough in the bottom of the tank to make it
> hard for them to find and eat the eggs, since even with no peat they just
> spawn on bare bottoms if well fed. I have almost given up on bowls etc. I
> just simply net or siphon out the peat to collect it.
> For shipping, after receiving lots of eggs around the world my own
> experience is that wetter peat protects the eggs better in travel. My
> physics brain guesses the wetter peat might provide more thermal mass and
> also help absorb radiation from mail scanners etc in the postal systems. You
> would not x ray and irradiate a pregnant women for example..
> And as an aside I think since all the 911 stuff - the anthrax letters in
> particular, eggs going to or from the states are probably getting a harder
> time of it.
> Thats just a guess, but from Europe to Singapore it has not been unusual to
> end up with what I would call perfect hatches. Japan and UK mixed results,
> SA depends on the country (although from SA if they do get here before
> someone pilfers them I get good
> hatches) and China I dont bother trying anymore. My feeling is that the more
> "secure" the systems are then the harder it is to get live materials
> through.
> The peat/coir thing is really just personal preference here in Singapore,
> most of the peat sold here is from Canada from what I have seen. Coir I
> guess is one of the local countries, but then 99% of things are imported
> here.
>
> Just some more observations,
>
> Scott,
> Singapore
>
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
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> End of Killietalk Digest, Vol 30, Issue 164
> *******************************************
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