Re: [Killietalk] give linneatus its proper name - and some more

[scott douglass <scottdouglass2000 at yahoo_com.au>]

I agree with you guys totally, proper naming is
crucial not just for killies, but through out the
entire hobby. I really get the feeling that some store
owners just make up the names as the fish come in,
whatever sounds good. And I also think it seems to be
getting worse, not better after being unable to pass a
fish shop in many different countries now for 25 years
without taking a look.
I dont know about the states but even golden wonder is
a recent one to me, I think they used to be sold as
golden panchax or something but that is probably a bit
too technical.
The only time I really see stores displaying
scientific names is with the Cichlids and the catfish,
and they somehow have managed to make it accepted -
and popular.
Plenty of idiots (and some clever people I know) still
have no problem on spending a fortune on L46 or
whatever L it is, or a dozen Tropheus at 50 bucks each
etc. (although i have to admit to being tempted also,
but way out of my price range..) 
I really get the feeling Killifish have a real
marketing problem, even in the past when I asked the
occasional shop keeper about Killies, I always got two
answers - very hard to keep, and very expensive. And
in most cases neither is true.
So ideally I would think it best to always stick with
scientific names and somehow rework the entire
marketing of killifish.
Unfortunately having been involved in most aspects of
the aquarium hobby over the years, most other fish
keepers really do view killifish keepers as something
different altogether. To them we may as well be
keeping cows or something.
So Wright brought up a very good point, I know there
is a lot of good relationships built up in the killi
world - and I have made many good friends ( and
probably p&*&*d a few off) , but I am sure everyone
has seen some new guy or girl really shot down over a
name or something similar. How many of those people
think well to hell with that?
I think we are all guilty of that to some degree which
is the price we pay for being passionate about our
fish, but definitely some more patience- tolerance -
guiding (not I am the king mentality) would also
benefit the hobby in general.
In my time I have also come across a few - not many -
but enough killikeepers who have refused to sell fish
to people in their area for whatever ego based reason
and similar issues.
And I have heard on many occasions in private talk -
"I would rather flush my fish down the toilet than
pass them to the local fish store."
So while the Keeping Killies is a wonderful hobby, all
is not as rosey as it seems. For anyone new it must
often appear as a secret club, and we have all heard
the stories of the new guy sitting there at a meeting
looking dumb. Is that really his or her fault? 
I know Killies are not Cichlids or Catfish, but if
they can manage to be popular and also rigorous in
naming, then surely that says something is wrong with
the public image of killifish.
And personally i think killies are generally much
easier to keep than the above and my killi tanks I
dont need scuba gear to get in and clean them, not to
mention killies must be the most spectacular looking
of freshwater fish.

Sorry for going a bit off topic but I think it is
relevant and sorry for my bitching - it is just one
opinion. But if you want to make things better then
you have to look at the bad as well as the good.

Scott Douglass
A global wanderer...
 

--- Wright Huntley <whuntley at inkmkr_com> wrote:

> 
> 
> Edd Kray wrote:
> > 
> > I'd like to politely make a suggestion to the list
> and admittedly it
> > shows me to be an old "phart" and a curmudgeon. 
> 
> No argument so far, Edd. :-)
> 
> > 
> > I notice MANY using the term "golden wonders" when
> speaking of their
> > first experiences with killies. We are speaking,
> of course, of the
> > Aplocheilus lineatus tank-bred strain displaying
> the un-natural gold
> > coloration.
> > 
> > Nevertheless they ARE Aplocheilus lineatus and I
> humbly recommend that
> > they be referred to by their appropriate species
> designation.
> 
> Now we come to an interesting point. While I
> heartily agree with you, 
> there are many who do not, and many of those are
> newbies to killies who 
> have no concept of how many different species and
> sub-species we have to 
> deal with. [We even have had some long-term, active
> breeders who refused 
> to use collection codes or locations when they
> distributed fish or eggs. 
> We have numerous "aquarium strains" now, thanks to
> their refusal to 
> buckle to the nomenclature nazis.]
> 
> There are similar problems with Rasboras and Bettas,
> in that a "common" 
> name that is easy for the trade can be very
> misleading. Likewise, other 
> multi-species groups like catfishes have outgrown
> the 19th-Century 
> pet-shop name system. The killies get the most
> bitching in this 
> department, partly because we have so damned many
> names to learn (the 
> species list alone is approaching 1000!), but mostly
> because we have to 
> be self-supporting in the breeding dept. Crossing a
> /Fp. gardneri/ with 
> a /Fp. nigerianus/ often produces gorgeous fish, but
> downstream 
> fertility problems will likely crop up.
> 
> Our only recourse has been to be starchy about using
> the correct 
> scientific (Latin) names and attaching accurate
> collection codes or 
> locations. From a marketing standpoint, this is
> simply a disaster. A new 
> young fishkeeper wants pretty pets, not
> tongue-twisting semantic 
> problems. Replicating them isn't his/her immediate
> concern, Keeping them 
> alive usually is. After they learn to tightly cover
> the tank, they may 
> eventually want to know how to make a mop.
> 
> > 
> > Perhaps my objection comes from the fact that I
> don't like the Pet
> > Industry, and the kind of folks who run PetsMart
> controlling the
> > language used by otherwise literate, knowledgeable
> aquarists here on
> > killitalk.
> 
> Your example is a poor one, for IME PetsMart has
> done a pretty decent 
> job, compared to other large chains, and I have
> found competent sales 
> staff and expert biologists backing them up. That is
> not at all so at 
> the WalMarts and Petcos I have known.
> 
> The snake-oil salesmen of FL and some of the
> distributors, there, have 
> given the tropical fish commerce a really bad name.
> They cannot, 
> however, hold a candle to the unethical distributors
> of SE Asia and Nigeria.
> 
> I had a Singapore merchant offer to attach any 
> species/sub-species/collection-location information
> I wanted to wild 
> Bettas. His only interest was in making the sale to
> me, and he had no 
> concept of what he was doing to the hobby (or he did
> not care).
> 
> > 
> > Anyway, this is one guys opinion and you are free
> to disagree as it is
> > just an opinion.
> 
> Rather than disagree (I don't) I'd like to offer a
> suggestion. Let's see 
> if we can do something that will fix it.
> 
> AKA standards in nomenclature have been tied to KMI
> for quite a while. 
> Unfortunately Ken is only one person and cannot
> bring out a monthly 
> revision to reflect the latest knowledge. Is there a
> better way? That we 
> still define /nigerianus/ as a sub-species of
> /gardneri/ is a glaring 
> example. These are two of our most popular species,
> and any of us who 
> have done much breeding of them are aware that they
> really are two 
> different species. Ken may have been quite correct
> in keeping them 
> together, lacking a recent reevaluation of that
> group in the scientific 
> literature, but it is no help to the poor newby who
> gets corrected on 
> his identification of his own fish, the very first
> time he brings a bag 
> to the club for the auction. More likely, he will be
> ashamed and 
> offended and go get some chicklets (at PetsMart?).
> :-)
> 
> We can do better, I feel. Rather than offer my
> prejudiced view of how to 
> do that, I'd like to see suggestions from others as
> to how we can deal 
> with the problem of accurate identification for
> breeding purposes and 
> the simultaneous need for simplicity in the names.
> Not an entirely 
> trivial task, I suspect.
> 
> Wright
> 
> -- 
> Wright Huntley - Rt. 001 Box K36, Bishop CA 93514 -
> whuntley at verizon_net 
> - 760 872-3995 760 874-2000 (CA) or 941 866-0500
> (FL).
> 
> Help stamp out TLAs! [Three-letter-abreviations] :-)
> 
> http://www.self-gov.org/wspq.html
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