Re: [Killietalk] give linneatus its proper name - and some more

["Karl Doering" <kilikarl at bignet_net>]

Scott & all once I took male N. melanospilus & N whitei & they sold them as 
pairs.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "scott douglass" <scottdouglass2000 at yahoo_com.au>
To: "killifish discussion list" <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] give linneatus its proper name - and some more


>I agree with you guys totally, proper naming is
> crucial not just for killies, but through out the
> entire hobby. I really get the feeling that some store
> owners just make up the names as the fish come in,
> whatever sounds good. And I also think it seems to be
> getting worse, not better after being unable to pass a
> fish shop in many different countries now for 25 years
> without taking a look.
> I dont know about the states but even golden wonder is
> a recent one to me, I think they used to be sold as
> golden panchax or something but that is probably a bit
> too technical.
> The only time I really see stores displaying
> scientific names is with the Cichlids and the catfish,
> and they somehow have managed to make it accepted -
> and popular.
> Plenty of idiots (and some clever people I know) still
> have no problem on spending a fortune on L46 or
> whatever L it is, or a dozen Tropheus at 50 bucks each
> etc. (although i have to admit to being tempted also,
> but way out of my price range..)
> I really get the feeling Killifish have a real
> marketing problem, even in the past when I asked the
> occasional shop keeper about Killies, I always got two
> answers - very hard to keep, and very expensive. And
> in most cases neither is true.
> So ideally I would think it best to always stick with
> scientific names and somehow rework the entire
> marketing of killifish.
> Unfortunately having been involved in most aspects of
> the aquarium hobby over the years, most other fish
> keepers really do view killifish keepers as something
> different altogether. To them we may as well be
> keeping cows or something.
> So Wright brought up a very good point, I know there
> is a lot of good relationships built up in the killi
> world - and I have made many good friends ( and
> probably p&*&*d a few off) , but I am sure everyone
> has seen some new guy or girl really shot down over a
> name or something similar. How many of those people
> think well to hell with that?
> I think we are all guilty of that to some degree which
> is the price we pay for being passionate about our
> fish, but definitely some more patience- tolerance -
> guiding (not I am the king mentality) would also
> benefit the hobby in general.
> In my time I have also come across a few - not many -
> but enough killikeepers who have refused to sell fish
> to people in their area for whatever ego based reason
> and similar issues.
> And I have heard on many occasions in private talk -
> "I would rather flush my fish down the toilet than
> pass them to the local fish store."
> So while the Keeping Killies is a wonderful hobby, all
> is not as rosey as it seems. For anyone new it must
> often appear as a secret club, and we have all heard
> the stories of the new guy sitting there at a meeting
> looking dumb. Is that really his or her fault?
> I know Killies are not Cichlids or Catfish, but if
> they can manage to be popular and also rigorous in
> naming, then surely that says something is wrong with
> the public image of killifish.
> And personally i think killies are generally much
> easier to keep than the above and my killi tanks I
> dont need scuba gear to get in and clean them, not to
> mention killies must be the most spectacular looking
> of freshwater fish.
>
> Sorry for going a bit off topic but I think it is
> relevant and sorry for my bitching - it is just one
> opinion. But if you want to make things better then
> you have to look at the bad as well as the good.
>
> Scott Douglass
> A global wanderer...
>
>
> --- Wright Huntley <whuntley at inkmkr_com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Edd Kray wrote:
>> >
>> > I'd like to politely make a suggestion to the list
>> and admittedly it
>> > shows me to be an old "phart" and a curmudgeon.
>>
>> No argument so far, Edd. :-)
>>
>> >
>> > I notice MANY using the term "golden wonders" when
>> speaking of their
>> > first experiences with killies. We are speaking,
>> of course, of the
>> > Aplocheilus lineatus tank-bred strain displaying
>> the un-natural gold
>> > coloration.
>> >
>> > Nevertheless they ARE Aplocheilus lineatus and I
>> humbly recommend that
>> > they be referred to by their appropriate species
>> designation.
>>
>> Now we come to an interesting point. While I
>> heartily agree with you,
>> there are many who do not, and many of those are
>> newbies to killies who
>> have no concept of how many different species and
>> sub-species we have to
>> deal with. [We even have had some long-term, active
>> breeders who refused
>> to use collection codes or locations when they
>> distributed fish or eggs.
>> We have numerous "aquarium strains" now, thanks to
>> their refusal to
>> buckle to the nomenclature nazis.]
>>
>> There are similar problems with Rasboras and Bettas,
>> in that a "common"
>> name that is easy for the trade can be very
>> misleading. Likewise, other
>> multi-species groups like catfishes have outgrown
>> the 19th-Century
>> pet-shop name system. The killies get the most
>> bitching in this
>> department, partly because we have so damned many
>> names to learn (the
>> species list alone is approaching 1000!), but mostly
>> because we have to
>> be self-supporting in the breeding dept. Crossing a
>> /Fp. gardneri/ with
>> a /Fp. nigerianus/ often produces gorgeous fish, but
>> downstream
>> fertility problems will likely crop up.
>>
>> Our only recourse has been to be starchy about using
>> the correct
>> scientific (Latin) names and attaching accurate
>> collection codes or
>> locations. From a marketing standpoint, this is
>> simply a disaster. A new
>> young fishkeeper wants pretty pets, not
>> tongue-twisting semantic
>> problems. Replicating them isn't his/her immediate
>> concern, Keeping them
>> alive usually is. After they learn to tightly cover
>> the tank, they may
>> eventually want to know how to make a mop.
>>
>> >
>> > Perhaps my objection comes from the fact that I
>> don't like the Pet
>> > Industry, and the kind of folks who run PetsMart
>> controlling the
>> > language used by otherwise literate, knowledgeable
>> aquarists here on
>> > killitalk.
>>
>> Your example is a poor one, for IME PetsMart has
>> done a pretty decent
>> job, compared to other large chains, and I have
>> found competent sales
>> staff and expert biologists backing them up. That is
>> not at all so at
>> the WalMarts and Petcos I have known.
>>
>> The snake-oil salesmen of FL and some of the
>> distributors, there, have
>> given the tropical fish commerce a really bad name.
>> They cannot,
>> however, hold a candle to the unethical distributors
>> of SE Asia and Nigeria.
>>
>> I had a Singapore merchant offer to attach any
>> species/sub-species/collection-location information
>> I wanted to wild
>> Bettas. His only interest was in making the sale to
>> me, and he had no
>> concept of what he was doing to the hobby (or he did
>> not care).
>>
>> >
>> > Anyway, this is one guys opinion and you are free
>> to disagree as it is
>> > just an opinion.
>>
>> Rather than disagree (I don't) I'd like to offer a
>> suggestion. Let's see
>> if we can do something that will fix it.
>>
>> AKA standards in nomenclature have been tied to KMI
>> for quite a while.
>> Unfortunately Ken is only one person and cannot
>> bring out a monthly
>> revision to reflect the latest knowledge. Is there a
>> better way? That we
>> still define /nigerianus/ as a sub-species of
>> /gardneri/ is a glaring
>> example. These are two of our most popular species,
>> and any of us who
>> have done much breeding of them are aware that they
>> really are two
>> different species. Ken may have been quite correct
>> in keeping them
>> together, lacking a recent reevaluation of that
>> group in the scientific
>> literature, but it is no help to the poor newby who
>> gets corrected on
>> his identification of his own fish, the very first
>> time he brings a bag
>> to the club for the auction. More likely, he will be
>> ashamed and
>> offended and go get some chicklets (at PetsMart?).
>> :-)
>>
>> We can do better, I feel. Rather than offer my
>> prejudiced view of how to
>> do that, I'd like to see suggestions from others as
>> to how we can deal
>> with the problem of accurate identification for
>> breeding purposes and
>> the simultaneous need for simplicity in the names.
>> Not an entirely
>> trivial task, I suspect.
>>
>> Wright
>>
>> -- 
>> Wright Huntley - Rt. 001 Box K36, Bishop CA 93514 -
>> whuntley at verizon_net
>> - 760 872-3995 760 874-2000 (CA) or 941 866-0500
>> (FL).
>>
>> Help stamp out TLAs! [Three-letter-abreviations] :-)
>>
>> http://www.self-gov.org/wspq.html
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