From: "Ken" <ken_combs at sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: ken_combs at sbcglobal.net, killifish discussion list
<killietalk at aka_org>
To: "'killifish discussion list'" <killietalk at aka_org>
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Turnover rates
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:54:17 -0500
I should have clarified :-(
I was way past the skimmer FW thing... for those who are unaware: (skimmers
won't "really" work per se in fresh water)..
Skimmer vs. Trickle filter:...with regard to gas exchange: a bubble under
pressure is not even close to the same thing as a liquid passing over a
surface....for the latter: generally O2 wins , CO2 looses...I was past that
also when posing the question as it applied to plants CO2 & O2
levels...which brings me to a trickle filter vs. a vegetative one:
As for O2 levels...lets not forget the other impetus behind my question:
temperature, O2 demand and nitrogen load: With a trickle filter, as waste
levels rise, O2 "demand" increases, with a vegetative filter it is pretty
much the opposite, in fact as more fuel for the metabolic processes are
available, O2 is a byproduct...
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: killietalk-bounces at aka_org [mailto:killietalk-bounces at aka_org] On
Behalf Of David Sanchez
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 8:32 AM
To: killifish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Turnover rates
Hi group,
As Markus opinted out if you want to saturate the water with O2 a
degassing/
trickle tower is far easier. I use it on my Diapteron tanks and they are
happy as pigs in mud at 77f. Good discussion of turnover rates has been
very
helpfull to me as I am also building my fishroom. My intrest in Markus
question was in the amount of flow each tank received as many Diapterons
prefer calm water.
As to the protien skimmers in fresh water. My experience is you need a few
things for it to work well. You need high pH, high TDS, and a massive fish
load. You must also use a very stong jet with fine bubbles to get the right
bubble size etc. A few of the wholesalers in your neck of the woods Joakim
use protien skimmers in their freshwater holding receiving systems.
In my case I had a very large recirculating system with massive Bio-load pH
was darn near 9 TDS through the roof. The system was also salted to 3ppm.
This all lead to the usa of a foam fractionizer as our conditions led us to
its use. For our small tanks and systems I feel plants and water changes
are
a far better bet. Good luck
Dave
--- coveney <LCOVENEY at swfla_rr.com> wrote:
> Hello all!
> I would be very interested in learning about the use of protein
> skimming in FW systems. I have heard a lot of rumours about this, but
> never any real sound proof of it. If anyone out there knows the
> specifics, could you please share what you know? I would also love to
> know Ken's "alternate secret" use, that is if you are not planning to
> conquour the Diapteron world with it! ;-) Don't worry Ken, my
> interest lies mostly with Nothos...
> Thanks!
>
> Joakim Coveney
> Naples, Florida
> AKA #06590
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken" <ken_combs at sbcglobal.net>
> > ...My lil trick of the trade: I plan on using a
> protein skimmer somewhere
> > in-line (he he he, yep they work in FW, but not
> for the reasons
> > intended)...(wink wink diapteron folks)
> >
> > KC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: killietalk-bounces at aka_org
> [mailto:killietalk-bounces at aka_org] On
> > Behalf Of Markus Brown
> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:02 AM
> > To: killifish discussion list
> > Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Turnover rates
> >
> > Scotty
> >
> > The formula is a time based equation. Because the
> formula assumes that the
> > water that is coming in, is measure "by the hour",
> it's answer is by the
> > hour. Using this formula and example we're using,
> it would take
> > approximately 2.3 hours to change 50% of the
> volume to 99.99% pure
> > "filtered" water. This formula does not work for
> simply pouring in a pre
> > determined amount of water to achieve turnover.
> >
> > What I use in my diapteron system is this. I have
> currently (although more
> > will be added) 14, 10 GAL tanks and 20 5.5 GAL
> tanks in a separate bank
> > (Pictures can be seen in the members gallery at
> the AKA site). I am
> > currently pushing approx 14 GAL/HR in the 10's.
> Using the formula it takes
> > 6.57 hours to turn the water over 99.99%. The five
> GAL tanks have 6 GAL/HR
> > pushing through them. Using the formula again it
> takes 8.43 hrs to turn
> the
> > water over 99.99%. I have used this flow rate for
> a few weeks now and can
> > check the TDS in the sump and the tanks and even
> if I change the value,
> the
> > value is the same within a couple of hours. I also
> use a small sponge
> filter
> > in each tank to increase flow and to add a little
> mechanical filtration. I
> > am currently adding a continuous drip system of
> pure tap water to keep the
> > water as soft and free of nitrates and other
> metabolic wastes as possible.
> >
> > I might not be explaining this clearly, but you
> can refer to the book by
> P.R
> > Escobal called Aquatic Systems Engineering:
> Devices and how they function.
> > This is the second edition. I have used so many of
> these formulas building
> > recirculation systems and reef systems that I find
> them very sound.
> >
> > Markus
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stuart R Scott" <sscott255 at comcast_net>
> > To: "killifish discussion list"
> <killietalk at aka_org>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 10:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Turnover rates
> >
> >
> > > Markus, just to make sure I understand what you
> are saying, with a 10
> > > gal tank(approx), if you replace 20 GPH, it
> would take 4.6 hrs to do a
> > > complete water change. That would mean you would
> have to replace approx
> > > 40 Gal to achieve a 50% water change? Therefore
> if I replace 20 Gal of
> > > water in a 10 Gal tank I would achieve a 25%
> water change?
> > >
> > > I'm not challenging you, I'm just trying to
> understand. I'm in the
> > > middle of building a pass through system and
> didn't realize it took that
> > > much water to make a signifigent change.
> > >
> > > Thanks...Scotty
> > >
> > > Markus Brown wrote:
> > >
> > >>Hello All!
> > >>
> > >>For those who are currently using recirculating
> or flow through/single
> > >>pass systems, how much water do you personally
> use for a particular tank
> > >>size and fish load?
> > >>
> > >>I have always tried to make sure the water mixes
> once every few hours,
> > >>with some kind of circulation in each tank i.e
> an airstone, or sponge
> > >>filter. Things have always worked out fine, I am
> just curius as to other
> > >>opinuns on the matter?
> > >>
> > >>Also, I have always used P.R Escobal's
> calculaion for what he calls,
> turn
> > >>over rate. The formula teaches that even though
> you may be putting 20
> > >>gallons of water into a tank in an hour, you are
> NOT replacing the water
> > >>twice an hour, you are mearly mixing the
> "filtered" water with the
> > >>un-filtered water. Using this calculation: T=9.2
> (Gallons in vessle/
> Water
> >
> > >>flow delivered to the vessle) where the 9.2 is a
> a purity coeficiant
> > >>equaling 99.99 % and using my earlier example of
> a ten gallon tank,
> > >>reciving 20 gallons an hr, the true turnover
> rate would be once every
> 4.6
> > >>hours.
> > >>
> > >>Any thoughts on the matter?
> > >>
> > >>Markus Brown
> > >>Astoria, Or
> > >>Join the AKA at
> http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9
> > >>Archives are at
> http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> > >>Modify your subscription at
> >
>
>>http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > Join the AKA at
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> http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
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> > >
>
http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk
> > >
> >
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> >
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