Re: [Killietalk] Killietalk Digest, Vol 27, Issue 11

["Denise W." <lizardfly11 at yahoo_com>]

ok..worms  in a Bromeliad....i would say yes to all of the benefits --a great source of protein AND anti-oxident--Freeze- dried are tubifix  are a great source of fiber  for  them !   
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Notho incubation times (ROBERT ELLERMANN)
2. Fishroom Racks (Donna M. Recktenwalt)
3. Re: Rack 'em up (Koran, David HQ02)
4. Rivulus tenuis (David Ramsey)
5. Tubifex Tubifex (Airwreck)
6. Re: Tubifex Tubifex (LeeH920226 at aol_com)
7. Re: Tubifex Tubifex (Wright Huntley)
From: ROBERT ELLERMANN <ruevenm at sbcglobal_net>
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Notho incubation times
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: killifish discussion list <killietalk at aka_org>

Hi,

Could it be the same thing that can happen with orchids when a plant "senses" death is near -- it blooms. Do the transplanted fish undergo some biochemical reaction from the stress of capture and captivity that triggers survival responses possibly mirroring the triggers -- if there are such things -- that determines the incubation period in the wild? Is incubation time all environmental based or is incubation also genetically/biochemically pre-determined in response to circumstances? Do fish lay eggs having a rigidly set/pre-determined incubation time?

Bobby

Brian Watters wrote:
Ralph Tran wrote:

>
> I recently got some Notho eggs (various species) that
> came from wild collected parents. The breeder told me
> that the incubation times on eggs from wild parents
> was incredibly short. I didn't totally believe him,
> particularly with N. furzeri, but went ahead and wet
> the eggs after 5 weeks of incubation.
>
> Sure enough, after only five weeks of incubation, I
> got a tremendous hatch from the N. furzeri eggs.
>
> Has anyone else noticed this trend and if so, any
> ideas on why this is?
>

Yes, quite consistently, the eggs from wild caught Nothos, especially eggs
collected soon after they have been brought back from the wild, will often
(but not always) show relatively short incubation times.

I noticed this as far back as 1988 when I first started bringing wild Nothos
back from Africa and I cannot explain it. It is something that I have
mentioned quite a few times on this list but, to date, I have not heard a
convincing explanation for it.
________________________________________
Brian Watters
6141 Parkwood Drive
Nanaimo, British Columbia V9T 6A2, Canada
Tel: (250) 760-0564
E-mail: bwatters at shaw_ca

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From: "Donna M. Recktenwalt" <dmrecktenwalt at sbcglobal_net>
Subject: [Killietalk] Fishroom Racks
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:20:50 -0400
To: "killifish discussion list" <killietalk at aka_org>

Hello, All -
I can't help but add my two bits to this continuing discussion.
My "fishroom" consists of two heavy duty modular steel racks (purchased more than 8 years ago from a hardware store. An entire rack system was rated for something like 1500 lbs., with individual shelves rated for 300+.) which occupy most of one wall in my home office. 
Since our home is a ranch, built on a concrete slab, we didn't need to consider additional support beneath the racks. Because the bottoms of the uprights were simiple angle iron, without a "foot," we placed strips of wood beneath the corners to protect the floor. The shelves are 1/2 inch plywood, which sit on inverted "L' shaped side bars that lock into the corner posts. Because the corner sections came in two pieces, placement of the first shelf was pre-determined - right in the middle, where it would lock the top and bottom corner pieces together.
The rest of the shelves could be placed at will by 2" increments, determined by the locking design of the side bars.
With (considerable) help from my husband, we designed and wired a lighting system of 24" fluorescent bulbs set on the underside of three of the four shelves. The lights are all wired together and then connected to an automatic timer. That takes care of the lighting requirements.
The shelves are 18" deep, which allows for 3 10-gal. tanks on end, 4 5-gal. tanks on end, or a single 20 long placed horizontally.
I use the top shelf for box storage of aquarium materials, and rearrange the tank setup as required by my varying population of fish.
Filtering is a combination of foam and box filters driven by air pumps, plus several power filters on the larger tanks. All tanks have glass covers. I've tried some other materials, but find that glass works best for me.
The entire setup is flexible. Shelves can be raised or lowered (there's some noise and shake when the side bars are pounded into place), but only the shelf being moved has to be emptied. Tanks can be moved, either for storage or cleaning; or even replaced if you want to start some fry off in shoeboxes. If you want to expand, add another rack; if you already have two, move them apart, then "create" modular wooden side bar units to connect them. I've had as many as 30 tanks and a few shoeboxes spread across two full units connected together by home-made shelves.
On the whole, I'm very satisfied with this system. Were I to do it again, however, I'd make a couple of small changes.
1. I'd put lights on all four shelves; it's simpler to pull a light bulb when you don't need it than to add extra lighting.
2. I'd allow more space behind the system so I could better access the pumps, air lines and plugs. Working from the front is doable, but sometimes a bit difficult.
What do I keep in those tanks? Killifish; some rare livebearers; a few small cichlids; and several types of catfish. Plus the occasional "stray" that interests me. 
My arrangement may not suit eveyone, but it has worked well for me. I hope this input helps others determine how to make the best of their facilities to meet their individual needs.
Best - donna
GCKA, Dayton, OH 

From: "Koran, David HQ02" <David_Koran at hq02.usace.army.mil>
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Rack 'em up
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:27:13 -0400
To: <killietalk at aka_org>

I apologize for not posting pictures of my racks a few months ago but
couldn't help not commenting on fish rack/stand design. I have been building
racks from 2x4's for about 30 years and my basic design has stood up well
during that period. My most common one holds 25 10 gallon tanks. As pointed
out, a typical 10 gallon tank has a width of 10 1/4" or 10 3/8" so an 8'
expanse can accommodate 9 tanks (about 93 1/2"). However, 4 tanks are 41
1/2" wide (times 2 is 83"), if you have 3 upright legs of 2x4's this another
10 1/2" of space you need to consider so for a 3 row rack you have a top row
of 9 and two lower rows of 8. To construct a rack like this you need 18
2x4's, a pound of 2 1/2" wood screws and a pound of 3" wood screws (I also
use #8 countersink finishing washers, you would need a little more than a box
of 100 of them--makes for a cleaner job and easier to take apart and move if
you need) and a miter box or power miter box saw, electric drill/screw
driver. Outside of your tools I estimate your cost is about $45 for the
2x4's, $7 for the screws and $5 for the washers and probably about 6-7 hours
to construct your first one.

I normally set the first shelf web so the top is two widths of 2x4 off the
floor, i.e., 7" and the top shelf at a comfortable eye level, maybe 5' or 60"
so between the underside of the top shelf and top of the bottom shelf you
have about 49.5" which will be taken up by two heights of tanks (2 x 12" and
the 3 1/2" of 2x4 shelf or 22" of access space (divided by 2 or 11 inches of
access space. If you want to squeeze in a fourth row of 8 figure in another
4 2x4's (you should have enough screws and washers from the initial purchase)
so figure an additional $10. But you now need to figure just how much access
you need between rows (I wouldn't drop below 6", 8" would be better) so then
you are talking 7" + 12" + 6" + 3.5" + 12" + 6" + 3.5" + 12" + 6" + 3.5" or
your top shelf bottom is at 71.5".

If your tanks are filled you are looking at 25 x 83 pounds of water or
roughly 1 ton of water with a 25 tank rack. My shelves are two lengthwise
2x4's (8') and I cut 17" sections of 2x4. I recess one on each end 3 1/2"
from the end but connect it so the narrow dimension is top and bottom, long
dimension on the side. Two more of the 17" lengths are places 1 3/4" off the
center point (48" for 8' shelves) also oriented the same way. I then center
a 17" length in the middle of each of 4' sides (mid point of the 38 1/4"
opening) wide dimension up flush with the top of the long shelf 2x4. What
you have is support on 3 sides of the tank so you can slide it in and out
while full without suddenly having it drop after it comes off the back 1.75"
of 2x4. You can orient 4 more 17" length in those gaps so your tank
supposedly rests on all 4 sides of the bottom and not worry about properly
orienting the tank when you pull it out but that would run you and additional
2x4 per shelf. That's the pro, the con is you need to be very precise on
leveling the cross pieces so contact is made on all 4 sides, if not your full
tank with water will either wobble or in time shift and in many case develop
a leak along one of the bottom seams.

My uprights are pairs of 2x4s cut to about 1/2" less than the height I want
the rack. I orient these wide side facing out and cut 3 20" pieces of 2x4
and screw these uprights to the 20" pieces 1 3/4" recessed. I also notch out
the top on 4 of the uprights to receive my top shelf but more on that later.
Orienting the bottom 20" cross brace inward (for the ends only is this
important), I place the first shelf section over the top of my middle set of
uprights (you should have a 3 1/2" space between your two middle braces/cross
shelf pieces. I also cut 6 2x4's to the length I want between the shelves
and then place 2 of them on the outsides of the center section of uprights
and screw them to the uprights. Then slide a second shelf section over the
top of those uprights and drop them to rest on the two braces. Now anchor
the second shelf to the uprights from the outsides. I also connect the
midpoint braces with single screws to the uprights with one or two screws
from each side. I also anchor the bottom shelf as well this same way. At
this point slide on one set of end uprights (orient your 20" section inward)
and add the spacer braces again anchoring the spacers and shelves. What you
have is a shelf frame on the bottom which places all of the weight on the 3
20" 2x4's. For some reason I like this design so air can get under the stand
(and dirt! and fish that jump!) but you don't allow water to rot or mold your
base. You can have that bottom shelf just sit on the floor as well. You can
also raise up the bottom shelf if you are building a circulating system or if
you want to use the space to age water. It all depends on how useful that
space is verse how much trouble it is to be bent over that much! If that is
your purpose, cut braces so the weight on the bottom shelf is supported by
the braces, not where you screw the shelf to the upright. This is exactly
where the braces come in for the second shelf, the weight is borne by the
braces carried to bottom shelf to the 3 cross braces. My top shelf has the
17" cross pieces on the end, flush with the end and on the top I have the
full compliment of cross pieces -- 8 for a row of 9 tanks. Because you can
maneuver better from the waist down I found full bracing on the bottom rows
not so much an issue but on the top, maneuvering tanks is a little more
difficult. Also the 4 side support comes into play and it is almost
advisable that one side is not flush with theopt of shelf but only as a guide
for moving tanks. As I said previous, I notch the end four uprights to
receive the top shelf so it rides on the notchs in the uprights. I also
anchor the center uprights to the shelf. The braces to the top shelf are not
as critical since you already have the notched uprights carrying the weight
but adding them cleans up the appearance of the rack. I have also adapted
the basic design for a 19 tank rack (7,6,6). It is also appropriate with
this "4 foot modulus in that you can use shop lights for lighting (again
being cheap). I also connect a loop of PVC pipe to the front of my stand
with drilled and tapped valves to deliver air to my tanks which fit
conveniently on the 3 1/2" face of the shelves. I have also used 2x4's of
12' length to construct a 25 tank stand for 20 gallon longs which is just a
sturdy (now dealing with 2 tons of water).

Dave Koran 


From: "David Ramsey" <djramsey at earthlink_net>
Subject: [Killietalk] Rivulus tenuis
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:48:55 -0400
To: <KillieTalk at AKA_Org>

Did anyone get any of the Rivulus tenuis that were collected from Honduras
back in May of this year? The trip had Rusty Wessel, Ken Davis and others
mostly collecting live bearers and cichlids. I got 3 of the tenuis, all
females. Badly need a male from the same trip.
David Ramsey Lawrenceville, GA
djramsey at earthlink_net




From: Airwreck <Airwreck at airwreck_com>
Subject: [Killietalk] Tubifex Tubifex
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 03:44:28 -0300
To: killietalk at aka_org

Hi All,

Got a questions does any one know the life cycle of the tubifex tubifex worm.

I fully understand the pros and cons of feeding these critters to my fish 
both Killie and others.. But we have found in our natural environment some 
living inside a bromeliad which we have a dozen or so growing in are yard. 
We might be wrong in this conclusion but growing in this environment they 
are very unlike to be exposed to the pathogens that so many folks have said 
to be inside the Tubifex worm. So far the results have been great the 
children are show no signs of ill effects and the parents are enjoying the 
change of diet.

Collection in this manner is rather slow and tedious by sucking the water 
out of the bromeliad and the sorting thru the muck to find the worms.. Due 
to a high demand and a low supply we would like to cultivate them and 
produce a larger quantity.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated

Thanks
Eric


From: LeeH920226 at aol_com
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Tubifex Tubifex
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:52:26 EDT
To: killietalk at aka_org

My experience with tubifex (over 35 years of feeding them whenever I can get 
a consistent good supply) indicates there is very little risk of feeding them 
when they have been rinsed thoroughly and are lively and not dying. I also 
doubt that the quantity that you would be able to produce in a controlled 
environment would be sufficient to make it worth your time and effort. If you learn 
something to the contrary, I certainly would rather raise my own than drive 100 
miles and pay $20/lb for them.

Lee Harper
Media, PA

From: Wright Huntley <whuntley at inkmkr_com>
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Tubifex Tubifex
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 15:08:33 -0700
To: killifish discussion list <killietalk at aka_org>



LeeH920226 at aol_com wrote:
> My experience with tubifex (over 35 years of feeding them whenever I can get 
> a consistent good supply) indicates there is very little risk of feeding them 
> when they have been rinsed thoroughly and are lively and not dying. I also 
> doubt that the quantity that you would be able to produce in a controlled 
> environment would be sufficient to make it worth your time and effort. If you learn 
> something to the contrary, I certainly would rather raise my own than drive 100 
> miles and pay $20/lb for them.

You are lucky. Tubifex are basically illegal in the People's Republic of 
CA, and it costs me about $40/lb to fly in CA blackworms from Fresno 
(300+ miles). Hell, I could have Kobi steaks at that price! My fish are 
spoiled.

Robert Nhan once found some Tubifex in some potted plants for his pond, 
so he set up production. As I recall his method, fine sand substrate in 
7 10G tanks, outdoors. Heavy aeration in all tanks. Fed cheap flake food 
or whatever daily. Once going well, he said he could harvest the worms 
from one half of a tank each day (an ounce or two?). After 2 weeks, he 
was back to the start.

Conclusion: Not worth all the effort. Had better use for tanks.

If Robert still monitors this list, I trust he will correct my story as 
needed.

Wright

PS I agree with Lee that there is no danger in feeding well rinsed 
Tubifex (or blackworms) as long as you do the proper *fish-tank* water 
changes such rich foods require. After 51 years in the hobby, I cannot 
recall ever seeing a disease clearly introduced by either species of worm.

-- 
Wright Huntley - Rt. 001 Box K36, Bishop CA 93514 - whuntley at verizon_net 
- 760 872-3995

"One in four Katrina victims were white people; so if this was a 
racist conspiracy, it wasn't a very good one." -- Ann Coulter

http://www.self-gov.org/wspq.html

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Denise 



		
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