Fred, I remember way back in the '70's when you could pick up the Luc. goodei at any pet shop as the rice patty killi. Ed Join the AKA at http://aka.org/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=9 Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/ Modify your subscription at http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/killietalk