[Killietalk] Re: Dave Koran response to Erny May

["yohoho" <yohoho at insightbb_com>]

Dave, I was very sorry to read your response, because it flat our misses the 
problem - In fact, it just might be the perfect example of the crux of the 
problem!  You started off well, with many good points, but you went way off 
the deep end and sunk to new lows.  It isn't money grubbing, and that isn't 
the problem anyway, even if you are too set in your ways to see that. 
Reread his comments with an open mind.  Let's knock off this personal attack 
crap and find the answers to get the AKA up to the level we think it should 
be.  If the European shows are better, then let's find the solutions to get 
us back to parity with them, but in-fighting ain't gonna do it!  (And keep 
your facts straight - Ernys' drive was stated as 14 hours, not 7 hours, 
which you would have known, had you carefully read his missive)

Frank Carriglitto
AKA#08234, CKA, and WAKO (written from the depths of a West Allis Bowling 
Alley)
----- Original Message ----- 

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:54:32 -0400
From: "Koran, David HQ02" <David_Koran at hq02.usace.army.mil>
Subject: [Killietalk] RE: Killietalk Digest, Vol 23, Issue 15
To: <killietalk at aka_org>

Response to:

Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:23:09 -0500
From: "Erny May" <emay1 at wi_rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] RE: The AKA  Convention Fish Show
To: "killifish discussion list" <killietalk at aka_org>

"We have a problem, a big problem": I would suggest that we may have a
number of
problems and one of them is defining just what they are.
To suggest that the "problem" confronting the AKA "is basically greed and
avarice" is
putting the cause of the "problem" squarely on the shoulders of the
membership, which
for the most part, lacks validity. The problem also is lack of leadership
and a mentality
that has not changed in decades. There are no short term or long term plans
to address
the difficulties. Communications between the leadership and the membership
are
cursory at best. Discussion of problems seems to be done behind closed doors
and
as soon as questions are raised, the offender is reminded that the
organization is run
by volunteers and gratitude rather than doubt should be demonstrated. I
really have no
use for your diatribes; they are offensive and provide no solutions or even
suggestions
of what might be solutions. I am glad you have the time and the financial
resources to
go to all of these conventions. Do you really believe that your approach of
heavy-handedness
and name calling is going to rally all of the "pikers", "money-grubbing
complainers" and
those that "gouge" attendees to mend their ways and become "more
altruistic"? We do
not need negative, belittling and derisory tirades at this time. We do need
to work together.
I think it is time that we address our problems and make whatever changes
are needed
to stave off extinction. That means looking at them without bias, breaking
with tradition and
availing ourselves of tools of the time.

Irked in WI

Erny May

****************************************

While I realize that most of us have families and usually try to cut travel
short, I have always carried my AKA Roster with me when I travel and often
contact folks in the area that I travel to in order to talk about killies or
even solicit a visit.  When I transferred to Washington 15 years ago from a
regional office to our headquarters office my interaction on programs with
work became national as did my travel.  After extending trips on my own dime
I found myself quickly tiring of sightseeing and I was never big on fine
dining nor am I much of a wine common-sewer so I turned some of that travel
into weekend collecting trips after business or visiting other 
killie-keepers
to talk about our favorite subject.  I realize it is an opportunity most of
us cannot take advantage of but it has afforded me a chance to see what 
other
hobbyist do and get a better sense of what makes killie-keepers tick.

Up to about 5 years ago I virtually never purchased an airline ticket for
personal travel even though I had accumulated a substantial balance of
frequent flier miles from both the airlines and credit card use.  It was 
Bill
Gallagher who convinced me to take in an occasional European killie show but
it was through my meeting the Wischmanns during a Chicago that I made my
first DKG show in 2002 (had been a DKG member off and on for over 30 years).
Also, like Peter Tirbak, when I was Chairman in 2002 I felt it a duty to
attend shows and get member input as well as see how other organizations ran
their affairs.

So Erny, what did I get from all of this.  The fishrooms of Europe ain't 
much
different than those over here except that space is much more at a premium.
What I did notice is that fishrooms tend to be more productive.  When 
someone
has a species they tend to have a group of that species rather than a single
pair in a small tank.  Again this sounds demeaning but the observation is
that I see more breeding over there and more collecting over here.  There is
a commercial aspect also like here but it sort of translates into a
willingness to show that one can produce fish and in doing so there is a
willingness to give them up (to shows) to reinforce exhibiting the breeders
prowess.  You build your reputation by sending fish to shows and you are
breeding fish so you have others available to sell or trade when the fish
sent to the shows entice interest.  There is also a lot of "dealing" that
goes on at these shows and members list what they can bring to the show for
trade or sale prior to the show.  We sort of did that prior to 1985 when the
CKA instituted the Chinese Raffle which morphed into the Fish Sale only I
don't view it as Scotty did (not a convenience to help people from having to
stay in their rooms to sell fish but rather tax the sale of those fish in an
open market-brilliant marketing ploy!!).  Another thing is that despite the
large number of entries I get a sense that most of those attending the
auction know their limit (at least what they can keep) and combined with the
auction order (class 1 entry #1 through to last class last entry number) you
don't get the bargain hunting feeding frenzy you see at most of our 
auctions.

While the internet has been good for many of the aspects of this hobby, I
think it has hurt the way we do business.  Twenty years ago folks complained
that it was a buyers market and that killies went far cheaper than they
should have.  The only outlet was the BNL's F&E Listing and the auctions one
could attend in person.  It was still very necessary to build a reputation 
as
a breeder in order to move your fish.  I think with the advent of internet
use and especially Aqua-Bid or other auction sites that this requirement of
reputation is no longer needed and anyone who produces something has an
unreal expectation that they should be getting the maximum return on what
they produced.  In other words, why should I give it away when someone will
always give me top dollar for it.  In that process I think we have lost the
concepts of cultivating breeder reputation and knowledgeable consumer
hobbyists.  It takes time and skill to produce the fish we desire.
Potentially we may also be losing quality because the electronic media seems
to expect we instantly produce this or that fish.

Back when the F&E Listing was pretty much the only game in town I had
suggested on the BOT that we incorporate the "lister's" KEY and KAP status,
sort of giving you a pedigree of what to expect in the way of fish from that
individual.  The effect takes much coordination.  But being realistic, our
biggest concern is simply trying to get the listing out in as compressed a
time frame (i.e., fairness in access to all members) while trying to get it
to not lag too long so that the list of available fish was accurate.  The
membership does have the ability to quickly consume any uncommon killilfish.
So maybe I answered my own question-does reputation matter in marketing fish
in the US?  Apparently not.

So maybe the question is are attracting more entries in the AKA convention
and rewarding the best entries the same question or two entirely different
processes.  If so, what are they?  This year the AKA tried to entice entries
with nicer trophies.  The cost of a 1st in class was about $100, original
artwork -- carved killifish mounted on an engraved wooden plaque.  2nd and
3rd places were also original mounted watercolors, $30+  in cost without
understanding the growing stature of the artist.  In all but the case of the
Episemion, the award was greater in value than the selling price of the 
fish.
You can't offer a choice, a prize or money, it has to be one or the other 
and
it appears right now the majority want the trophy.  I have heard Convention
Chairs in the past say they wanted to get away as cheap as possible with
trophies and let me tell you many have.  I think the AKA has made a major
shift in developing a high standard for show awards and has provided funding
to compensate judges (if only they would now evaluate every entry), so I am
left with the only rationale I can think of is that the lack of entries is
mostly greed.  Erny, I don't think baggage restrictions were a consideration
when the four of you piled into that vehicle in Milwaukee for the 7 hour 
trip
to Rockville.  The Fishsale is very accommodating for everything one has to
sell if they really feel they need the money and judging from this show and
past shows not much goes unsold.  Would someone really miss 2 or 3 more pair
that got directed to the show instead of the fishsale.  Couldn't that loss 
be
made up by maybe some younger fish like them in the sale room for maybe a
little less cost if you really needed the cash?  If you are outraged by
someone calling you money grubbing and resent the remark, maybe you really 
do
resemble the remark!  Seriously, offer up alternatives...

Dave Koran

Oh, BTW after all the free food, drink and gallons of coffee you thought $40
was gouging!  Sorry we didn't hold it in a bowling alley in West Allis.

----- Original Message -----  

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