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[Killietalk] Re: Killietalk Digest, Vol 7, Issue 11
Hi all, I just want to jump in a little bit on the
discussion on treating fish: The metronidazol with
live artemia nauplii works very well on freshwater
fish, especially tetras and barbs. The " wasting
away" specimen most likely has an internal problem,
but it may not be parasitic. It may have gill damage
from water conditions, bad shipping, and many other
things. If the gills are bad, you will see secondary
and tertiary infections and manifestations that can
lead you in the wrong direction. Even if you are
using a flow chart to key a disease, you may be
treating totally wrong. For this reason, I used to
treat in-coming shipments from various suppliers in
the following way: Metronidazole in the food and
neomycin sulfate in the water as a prophylactic
treatment. If my memory servrs me, the aquatronics
dosages were 1 capsule per 10 gallons of freshwater. 1
cap seems to be 250 milligrams. I used to do this with
cardinal tetras with consistent results on a weekly
basis. The hard part is the metronidazole. You have
to use half dosage and introduce the artemia after
they have been rinsed in fresh water. After they have
been fushed in freshwater, they will readily take up
the metronidazole in a few minutes. You have to be
careful because the metronidazole will kill the
artemia nuaplii. It seemed to work very well, having
the fish in neomycin sulfate and eating metronidazol.
The Aquatronics product is called Hexamit. I also
used kanamycin sulfate from the same company, but that
material is less stable in water than neomycin. So it
seems. The big problem here, as pointed out earlier,
is that shotgun approaches are not really a good idea.
If you have true internal parasites in your fish, the
above teatment still works. The trick is water
changes and re-treatment. Alot of good treatments
available at our local retail establishments only work
if you keep the water conditions from deteriorating
while treating. This often is worse than the pathogen
you are trying to exterminate.
Mark Delraso
Columbus, Ohio
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it
> is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Killietalk digest..."
> > Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Cloromine (sic) (AL Anderson)
> 2. Re: Fry Growth Rate (Duane Wake)
> 3. Re: Fry Growth Rate (Duane Wake)
> 4. Re: Flubendazole in a saltwater quarantine
> tank (Rjga at aol_com)
> 5. Re: Flubendazole in a saltwater quarantine
> tank (Rjga at aol_com)
> 6. Re: Flubendazole in a saltwater quarantine
> tank (Mary Ludwig)
> 7. Re: Flubendazole in a saltwater quarantine
> tank (AL Anderson)
> 8. Chlorine and Chloramine.
> (listhub at libros_andante.mn.org)
> 9. Re: Chlorine and Chloramine.
> (LeeH920226 at aol_com)
> 10. Re: Chlorine and Chloramine.
> (listhub at libros_andante.mn.org)
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3.1 message/rfc822
> From: "AL Anderson" <killiman at iquest_net>
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Cloromine (sic)
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:34:14 -0800
> To: "killifish discussion list" <killietalk at aka_org>
>
> Than God for wells, a softener, and ro unit.Al
> Anderson
> killiman at iquest_net
> 317 253 2170 Phone
> 317 466 1615 Fax
>
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3.2 message/rfc822
> From: Duane Wake <dwake at iopener_net>
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Fry Growth Rate
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:14:07 -0500
> To: killietalk at aka_org
>
>
> Henry,
>
> What works best for me, is to put them in as soon as
> possible in a flow thru shoe box. I feed mine Hikari
> First Bite, Clyclop-eeze, BBS and when they get a
> little size to them, some small Grindal worms. It`s
> amazing how fast they grow in this set-up, try it.
>
> Duane
>
>
>
> Little Dude wrote:
> >
> > Hey, I was just wondering what would be the
> ideal conditions for the
> > fastest growth rate in fry.
> >
> > Henry
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > To join the AKA see
> http://www.aka.org/pages/join.html
> > Archives are at
> http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
>
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3.3 message/rfc822
> From: Duane Wake <dwake at iopener_net>
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Fry Growth Rate
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:21:03 -0500
> To: killietalk at aka_org
>
>
> Henry,
>
> Sorry, I forgot to mention Liquifry No. 1
>
>
> Duane Wake wrote:
> >
> >
> > Henry,
> >
> > What works best for me, is to put them in as soon
> as possible in a flow thru shoe
> > box. I feed mine Hikari First Bite, Clyclop-eeze,
> BBS and when they get a little
> > size to them, some small Grindal worms. It`s
> amazing how fast they grow in this
> > set-up, try it.
> > Duane
> >
> >
> >
> > Little Dude wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, I was just wondering what would be the
> ideal conditions for the
> > > fastest growth rate in fry.
> > >
> > > Henry
> > >
> > >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > > Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software ?
> optimizes dial-up to the max!
> > >
>
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1
> > >
> > >
> > > To join the AKA see
> http://www.aka.org/pages/join.html
> > > Archives are at
> http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
> >
> >
> > To join the AKA see
> http://www.aka.org/pages/join.html
> > Archives are at
> http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
>
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3.4 message/rfc822
> From: Rjga at aol_com
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Flubendazole in a
> saltwater quarantine tank
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:28:02 EST
> To: killietalk at aka_org
>
> I didn't get onto this thread early enough to see
> the original post, but I
> have some experience with flubendazole in salt
> water. When I working with clown
> fish (and feeding lots of baby brine shrimp), I had
> multiple outbreaks of
> hydroids on the bottom and glass. These are much
> larger than hydra, but I reasoned
> that flubendazole might work on these pests the same
> way it works on
> freshwater hydra. I attempted several times to
> destroy the hydroids with this
> veterinary drug, at pretty large concentrations (not
> measured, but much larger than I
> use in freshwater), and it had no effect. Either
> these marine hydroids have a
> different biochemical pathway that is refractory to
> the drug's effects, or
> something in marine water (most likely ions of
> salts) inactivates the drug, ties
> up its reactive portion, or doesn't let it be taken
> up into marine hydroids.
> Those are just guesses. A good starting point (for a
> grad student) is to
> determine how it works in mammalian nematodes, see
> if it works on free-living
> nematodes (like microworms), and investigate the
> physiology of hydra to see if it
> has the same target pathway(s). - Bob Goldstein
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3.5 message/rfc822
> From: Rjga at aol_com
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Flubendazole in a
> saltwater quarantine tank
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:32:49 EST
> To: killietalk at aka_org
>
> Now that I've seen the original post, I agree that
> this shotgun approach is
> senseless. Note that in Charles Harrison's article,
> he didn't say flubendazole
> worked against Hexamita, only that he PRESUMED that
> the fish had Hexamita, and
> that was a likely cause of its emaciation. I don't
> agree with the reasoning,
> and would caution against using any drug for an
> undiagnosed ailment. If you
> are really concerned about a fish (or an outbreak)
> and you do not have the
> ability to do the diagnosis, take it to a
> veterinarian where you will at least get
> an educated and reasonably rationale diagnosis and
> course of treatment. - Bob
> Goldstein
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3.6 message/rfc822
> From: "Mary Ludwig" <mary at rockytop_net>
> Subject: [Killietalk] Re: Flubendazole in a
> saltwater quarantine tank
> CC:
> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:22:43 +0500
> To: killietalk at aka_org, cgraseck at optonline_net
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> > Now that I?ve just gotten through telling
> Wright about my perfect reef
> > tank, I have to admit that I do have one fish
> that is rejecting food.
> > It is a Bangi Cardinal (Pterapogon kauderni)
> and this has been going on
> > for about a month now. This is a captive bred
> fish that I have had for
> > 17 months.
> First off, are you sure that the fish doesn't just
> have a mouthful of young? I believe the male will
> hold a clutch for 25 days or so, and will go without
> food of course.
>
> > I was
> > thinking of putting the sick fish in my 20
> gallon quarantine tank and
> > treating it with Flubendazole.
> >
> > The question is how do I dose Flubendazole in
> such a large tank?
>
> I must agree with Charles that you don't really have
> a diagnosis here. However, if you are suspecting
> internal parasites (hexamita or what have you),
> Metronidazole dosed with food is a popular and
> *usually* invertebrate safe remedy. A little easier
> than dosing 20gal of water. Seachem makes a
> product:
>
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/wetpetsusa/seacfismedme.html
> or you can get some from your vet.
>
> Must let you know that I haven't used either of
> these medications, just trying to pass along the
> little knowledge I've gained while preparing to
> breed some A. oscellaris clowns. My pair does have
> a parasite problem (stringy white feces) and I plan
> to treat with Metronidazole and a Praziquantel
> follow-up treatment. I can let you know how this
> goes if you're interested.
> Best of luck,
> Mary Ludwig
> Elkton, MD
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3.7 message/rfc822
> From: "AL Anderson" <killiman at iquest_net>
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Flubendazole in a
> saltwater quarantine tank
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:51:50 -0800
> To: "killifish discussion list" <killietalk at aka_org>
>
> How much will this trip to the vet be? Is the fish
> covered with medicade?
> The last trip to the vet cost me $ 250.00 for shots
> and heart worm pills.
>
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3.8 message/rfc822
> From: listhub at libros_andante.mn.org
> Subject: [Killietalk] Chlorine and Chloramine.
> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 09:08:12 -0600 (CST)
> To: Killietalk List <killietalk at aka_org>
>
> Wright, Charles, Lee, ... and anyone else who cares
> to comment.
>
> First off I am sorry I came in late on this thread.
> I was out of town for a
> few days. Reading the thread made me think that I
> had not done any testing
> since I installed my new RO unit last spring. I am
> using a Kent standard (not
> Bare Bones) unit and I run the output from that
> through a Aquarium
> Pharm. Tap Water Purifier. The water comes out 0 to
> 1 on the TDS meter.
>
> I live in St. Paul Minnesota. Municipal Water
> Analysis which I request from
> the Water Department every year says 3 ppm
> Chloramine is used in the water.
> The water is relatively soft to begin with, about
> 160 ppm from the tap. For
> this reason I use the waste water from the RO unit
> for all my Nothos. It is
> about 190 to 200 ppm coming out. In the past I have
> always used Prime and a
> Charcoal Filter in this water before it goes in the
> tanks.
>
> Here is the results of my testing and I am very
> confused. Let me say that my
> test kit is the expensive HACH Chlorine test kit.
> Reagents are less the a year
> old.
>
> Water comes out the waste of the RO unit at 1.8 ppm
> Chlorine. This water goes
> through the prefilter but not the membrane of the
> Kent RO unit.
>
> Here is the curious part ...
>
> Leaving that same water in a storage container for
> 48 hours tests 0 for
> Chlorine!
>
> Now as stated above the St. Paul Water Analysis
> shows the Chloramine is the
> compound that is in the water to begin with and the
> water tests 1.8 ppm for
> Chlorine out the unit. Conventional wisdom is that
> Chloramine does not
> evaporate out. However 48 hours dissipates all
> Chlorine. During that time the
> water is in a standard plastic 50 gallon garbage
> can, el cheapo from Home Depot.
>
> All comments welcome
> john
>
> ------------------------------------
> John N. Alegre o
> Andante Systems o
> eCommerce Consulting o
> Custom Web Development <*{{{{}><
> ------------------------------------
> AKA, BKA, CKA, IBC
> MKKA (Minnesota Killie Keepers Association)
> WAKO (Wisconsin Area Killifish Association)
> MAS (Minnesota Aquarium Society)
> -------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3.9 message/rfc822
> From: LeeH920226 at aol_com
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Chlorine and Chloramine.
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:44:24 EST
> To: killietalk at aka_org
>
>
> In a message dated 2/3/04 10:12:49 AM,
> listhub at libros_andante.mn.org writes:
>
> << All comments welcome
> john >>
>
> OK, there is one more test you need to do. If the
> water out of the RO unit
> tests for chlorine, does it also test for
> chloramine? That test is normally a
> test for ammonia after the test for total chlorine
> followed by a test for
> ammonia after destroying the chloramine with hypo.
> It is possible (at least in my
> mind) that the RO membrane rejects chloramine but
> allows chlorine to go through
> based on the dipole moment, or ionic character of
> the molecule. It is not a
> size exclusion membrane, per se, but rejects because
> of dipole interaction. Now
> if this dipole interaction with the chloramine is
> strong enough it may induce
> dissociation of the chlorine-nitrogen bond and break
> the chloramine molecule
> into its components allowing the chlorine to proceed
> and tie up the ammonia.
> Now I assume there is a carbon filter on the
> downstream side for the low TDS
> water from the RO unit but not on the "waste water"
> line.
> Regardless of the mechanism, tests are in order
> for both chlorine and
> chloramine at both exits from the RO unit.
>
> Lee Harper
> Media, PA
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3.10 message/rfc822
> From: listhub at libros_andante.mn.org
> Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Chlorine and Chloramine.
> CC: killietalk at aka_org
> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 10:07:38 -0600 (CST)
> To: LeeH920226 at aol_com
>
> Lee thanks so much for you comments. I was thinking
> along the lines of your
> reply, i.e. that something that the tap water goes
> through in the Kent RO unit
> is converting Chloramine to Chlorine which then
> evaps out.
>
> On 03-Feb-04 LeeH920226 at aol_com wrote:
> > OK, there is one more test you need to do. If the
> water out of the RO unit
> > tests for chlorine, does it also test for
> chloramine? That test is normally a
> > test for ammonia after the test for total chlorine
> followed by a test for
> > ammonia after destroying the chloramine with hypo.
>
> >
> I currently don't have any hypo, only Prime. As I
> understand it I can pick this
> up from a photo supply house? I do want to complete
> these tests for my own
> education and for the sake of the group. If indeed
> all I have do is Charcoal
> filter my RO waste water to get pure 200 ppm water
> with no Prime or other
> additives I would be very very happy. Is there a
> LFS source of hypo type
> compound?
>
> < SNIP >
>
> > Now I assume there is a carbon filter on the
> downstream side for the low TDS
> > water from the RO unit but not on the "waste
> water" line.
> >
> This is exactly correct. I run the output low TDS
> water from the RO unit
> through an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Tap Water
> cartridge. This contains
> charcoal and resins. The out water of that is, as I
> said in my previous post, 0
> to 1 ppm on the TDS.
>
> Here in MN with our radiator heat we live in
> extremely dry conditions and we are
> pushing humidifiers in every room. The sonic type
> humidifier seams to work best
> with either distilled or this pure RO water. I do
> the Aqua Pharm thing more to
> take the 25 to 30 ppm output water of the Kent unit
> to 0 for these humidifiers,
> however, I now see I am doing my fish a service with
> this too.
>
> > Lee Harper
> > Media, PA
> >
>
> ------------------------------------
> John N. Alegre o
> Andante Systems o
> eCommerce Consulting o
> Custom Web Development <*{{{{}><
> ------------------------------------
> AKA, BKA, CKA, IBC
> MKKA (Minnesota Killie Keepers Association)
> WAKO (Wisconsin Area Killifish Association)
> MAS (Minnesota Aquarium Society)
> -------------------------------------------
> >
> To join the AKA see
> http://www.aka.org/pages/join.html
> Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/
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