RE: [Killietalk] Cloromine (sic)

["Kray, Edd" <Edd_Kray at rf.doe.gov>]

One question on this chloramines controversy. How does the rather
aberrant pH of St Louis water effect this situation ? I recall that the
pH there is close to 9. Doesn't this effectively reduce the toxity of
the ammonia  released by the hypo. Whereas in a situation with more
normal pH (7), the ammonia might be a real problem. So experience unique
to St Louis may not apply to the majority of the rest of the US.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wright Huntley [mailto:whuntley at verizon_net] 
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 11:58 AM
To: killifish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] Cloromine (sic)

Charles,

Charles Harrison wrote:

> Hello group,
> 
> I held back when I first read Wright's posting about pH of 7.5 and 
> ammonia being deadly to our fish through adding Thiosulfate to remove 
> Chlorine and Chloramine.  But when stated that was the practice was 
> "TERRIBLE ADVICE!" I can no longer be quiet.

Your experience does not mean it is safe to use hypo on city water, 
everywhere. Be careful how adamant you are, Charles, for there is ample 
hard evidence that your advice is not too good.

> 
> I have raised and sold tens of thousands of Angles, Guppies, Bettas,
and 
> Cichlids, Tetras, Livebearers , Barbs and Killies from my home
fishroom 
> in St Louis since 1979.

> snip....  I do not 
> hesitate to recommend to anyone the use of Thiosulfate to treat their 
> Chloramine treated city water. The only thing I have to be careful of
is 
> the temperature, I try to keep it at or about 70F, sometimes a problem

> in the summer.
> 
> Let me say it again - I do not hesitate to recommend to anyone the use

> of Thiosulfate to treat their Chloramine treated city water.

This runs counter to the experience of a *large number* of good 
breeders. Two Betta Grand Champions (their equiv. of our KHY) lost 
entire fishrooms when the water in their cities (one in GA and one in S,

CA) was switched to chloramines and they continued use of hypo. 2.5 ppm 
was able to generate enough free ammonium/ammonia to wipe out all their 
breeders and most of the young fish being raised in one single water 
change! When you have invested in many generations of selective breeding

to produce the big show winners in ornamentals like *Betta splendens*, 
this can be a devastating loss.

I am aware of at least three expert killifish breeders on the SF 
peninsula, who went through a very difficult time with eggs-not-hatching

and laying problems. Turns out that they were exposed to moderately low 
levels of chloramine without any notice, and two did not change their 
dechlorination process (simple aging). One alert breeder switched to 
carbon filtration and stopped the problem cold in his fishroom.

We also had an undocumented bad year at WCW, where the total post-show 
mortality, based on my quiet telephone survey, may have approached 90%. 
Same cause. Sale table fish that did not get (maybe hypo-treated?) water

from the show were all just fine. No one knew that Palo Alto had added 
chloramine to the city supply.

> 
> Now, back to change some more water . . .
> 
That you do that so religiously, keep your tanks rather cool, and may 
have lower-than-normal amounts of chloramine may help explain why you 
can get away with something that most beginners should avoid.

I have seen way too many sad situations, myself, to be comfortable with 
your blanket endorsement of hypo for treating chloramine.

Wright

-- 
Wright Huntley -- 760 872-3995 -- Rt. 001 Box K36, Bishop CA 93514

   It's "Live free or die," not "Let's make a deal."

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Archives are at http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/