RE: [Killietalk] Grindal/white worm culture on synthetic media STEPBY STEP INSTRUCTIONS...FINALLY

["Tranquility Base" <TranquilityBase at netzero_net>]

Hi Ronnie,

First of all let me apologize in advance for a very likely brief but
inconvenient anticipated absence from this list.

I have just done some very heroic repairs on my PC. So far I have replaced 3
drives and the power supply. I am getting an intermittent boot failure and
anticipate that either the mother board or Brandy new Hard drive is about to
cook. When it happens, I'll be down for at least a day to a few days
depending on which component fries and how well backed up I will be. I might
lose messages so if I don't reply resend your request in a few days. My
anticipated rudeness is not intentional. And if you resend your e-mail more
than once, I certainly wont think you rude.

OK, now to the worms:

Boxes first, The plastic shoe box permits for restricted air circulation.
But it maintains a very high degree of humidity. Condensation on the lid of
the box is normal and should be a good indicator that your humidity is ok.
If your boxes seal airtight you will benefit by not having to seal the box
into a plastic bag to keep bugs out, but you will have to cut a hole into
the lid to provide for air circulation. Cover the hole by taping a drip
coffee filter paper over the hole. Remember you are balancing air transfer
against moisture. The plastic shoe box with its loose fitting lid happens to
do that by itself. If the humidity is too low the worms will not come to the
surface of the scrubbers and can not be harvested.

The medium:

The medium itself will not transfer moisture from the water bath at first.
But it will not dry as you are keeping it in a very high humidity
environment. As it accumulates bacteria dirt etc, it will. As the pores clog
you will need to rinse the scrubbers under rapidly running water(ie. high
pressure tap or hose). The worms will not live in the water bath nor will
they live in a medium that retains moisture. The moisture the worms need
comes from the high humidity in the container.
The scrubbers in your photo look ok, as long as they are not the ones that
have the pot scrubber abrasive material on one side. They should be made of
the same material through and through. Water should run through them pretty
freely, but you should not be able to see through them.  Different scrubber
densities will produce scrubber cultures that have slightly different
characteristics. Less dense material tends to take longer to get started,
but over time becomes more productive. The packs you have look like they are
contain about 5 or six scrubbers each. Choose a box in which you can put 3
packs in side by side. The stacks should be touching so that the worms can
move freely from one stack to another.

The water bath:

Recap: you have 3 stacks of scrubber pads touching each other in the center
of a plastic box. The lids either fit loosely or snap air tight in which
case you have made a small hole in the lid and covered same with coffee
filter paper and taped it securely to the lid to keep fruit flies and midges
out.

Next: Flood the whole box with water. Let it soak for 5 minutes making sure
that the scrubbers are well wet. Then dump the water. If you feel that there
is soap or some other contaminant in either the media or the container rinse
it until you are certain that the material is clean.
Add water to the shoe box until the water covers only the bottom (lowest) 1
to 2 pads.

The bug Bag:

If your lids are loosely fitting and you did not need to cut a hole into
them then fruit flies and midges can get in. Therefore put the entire box
into a plastic bag and seal the open end with a potato chip clip, twist tie,
piece of wire or solder or whatever you have. You will be opening the bag
daily or almost daily so make it easy on yourself.  Now take a razor or
scissor and cut a hole into the bag at least 1 inch by 2 inches. Cover the
hole with a piece of drip coffee filter and tape it to the bag to cover the
hole.

The synthetic worm environment is now complete! Simple, elegant and cheap.

Prepare for feeding the worms:

I use regular oatmeal. I put it into a blender and grind it to the
consistency of flour. I then put the oatmeal into a grated cheese shaker and
sprinkle the food thinly on top of the top layer of pads.  The worms will
come up out of the media to eat the food and once gorged lay about there.
Too much food will mold and can be washed off. Too little food will starve
the culture. Start feeding lightly and increase the amount of food as the
worm population increases.  You should feed daily, the amount of food you
add each day should be eaten within 24 hours.

Now that you have food prepared, you are ready to add worms.

Start your culture with one to two tablespoons of worms.  Put the cleaned
and washed worms right on top of the culture and sprinkle oatmeal thinly
over them.  If you add too many worms they will overproduce too quickly and
everything will die! I believe that the risk of the boom and bust cycle will
continue until a bacteria culture establishes itself. Is there any way to
introduce a bacteria culture without taking one from an established culture?
I don't know I developed mine over time. As you are starting with a small
culture graft, you should be ok for at least a few weeks. Be patient! It
could take several weeks for your culture to reach sufficient population
density for you to start harvesting.

When you see the top of the pads covered with worms you will need to
harvest.  If you do not harvest in time you culture will overpopulate and
almost everything dies. (too much waste?, not enough air?, ammonia build up
due to lack of bacterial culture?, All of the above?...Yes)

To harvest:

Fill another container about 2 inches deep with water. Remove the top pad
*only* and invert it. Dip the pad into the container containing the water.
The worms will float off and sink to the bottom of the container. Replace
the pads atop their respective stacks in the culture and feed. Close the
culture and reseal in bag as appropriate.  You will be repeating the
harvesting and feeding process daily until your culture becomes stable.

The harvested worms will drown in the water in about 1/2 hour. So pour off
the excess water, pour the worms with the remaining water into a cup. Feed
the worms using a baster or large eyedropper type apparatus.

Start with at least two cultures and keep your dirt cultures going until you
get a few stable synthetic cultures producing.  Things are going to go
wrong. Don't panic, it is part of the learning curve. You will develop a
feel for the process over time. Just like keeping anything alive there is
some element of judgment involved. New cultures are tricky, I have lost my
share of them. If they overpopulate and go bust just wash them out and start
over. When I started I was on my own, you should feel free to share your
concerns with me, most likely I have made every mistake you are likely to
encounter. I will be happy to answer your questions.

Note for other people on this list following along:

I regret that I will be going through this process completely only once in
the foreseeable future due to time limitations. I will reply to inquiries
from people who are actually working along with Ronnie and myself and then
principally regarding set up procedures for the next week or so. Please
limit your questions to issues regarding actually setting up your cultures.
Don't be shy ask. If you are afraid to ask get someone to ask for you. After
next week I will only address issues regarding your developing cultures.
Then we will move on to issues regarding harvesting etc. When relaying your
concerns please include the type of worms you are using, temperature, any
deviations from the formula you have made and detailed symptoms of the
problem. The more information you give me and the more specific your
questions are the more likely you will be to get a prompt reply.

I have made a few additional comments below.

Peace and good luck,

~RJ~



-----Original Message-----
From: killietalk-bounces at aka_org [mailto:killietalk-bounces at aka_org]On
Behalf Of Ron @ CCK
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:06 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: [Killietalk] Grindal culture on synthetic media (was re: White
WormKeeper)


Dear RJ,

I was on graveyard shift the past week but did manage to get some the
things you've listed;

 > So if you are interested, start with the following purchases:
 > 3 plastic shoe boxes Steralite or equivelent. The lids should
 > fit snugly but not be air tight.
The use of shoe boxes is not widely practiced locally but the corner
store had some plastic 4-box sets on offer.  Will this work?
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/fishz/grindal/Soiless/GrindalBoxT.JPG

 > Aquire sufficient scrubber pads to cover the bottom of 2 of
 > the shoe boxes 5 or six layers deep. Note, they need not cover
 > the entire bottom of the shoe box. There is nothing wrong with
 > being able to see the water bath when opening the top.
Near the corner store, I bought some filter wool, commonly used in
tank-mounted overflow filters.  Can I suppliment and combine the wool to
make up for the thickness?

I don't know. It might work. One fellow has adapted my procedure to feed
cantaloupe melon, it works a treat for him. Some deviations will undoubtedly
improve on what I have done. Others will not work. Do two cultures the way I
do then feel free to experiment. The more things that people try the more
likely someone will be to improve on my work. This is a good thing. If
something works better report it to me and the list. Just remember, success
requires stability. Some things I tried worked great for a while but could
not be sustained. Some sponges for example showed early promise but were
impossible to clean when they took on a vile odor.

 > The scrubbers shoud be equivelent to the green 3M variety used
 > in households to clean dishes.  You can usually find them at
 > 99 cent shops in the US.
The nearest equivalent to the 3M product scrubbers you described was
this;
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/fishz/grindal/Soiless/Grindal3Mpads.JPG
These are 5pc packs measuring 75x100mm each.  I didn't buy alot of it,
in case it wasn't the correct item.  If it is, then I'll go buy more.

I prefer the 4X6 inch size, or the 6x10 inch variety, but what you have
should be ok. See my notes above.

 > Obtain 2 plastic bags large enough to be sealed around two
 > of the shoe boxes.
I have those thin and white garbage bags... but what would I need them
for if there's already a well fitting lid?

If bugs can't get in and the seal is air tight like Tupperware, make a
*small* hole in the lid and cover with filter paper as instructed above.
Remember the hole should not be too large *humidity is critical*.

 > Although the synthetic white worm and the grindle worm
 > are substancially the same size and appearance, they
 > clumped differently in water.
Can you expand on the 'synthetic white worm' and are they able to
tolerate higher temps than 'regular' white worms?  In my grindal
culture, I'm also looking a 2 different crawlers and one of them look
awfully like overgrown planaria.

Most of my experience with flat worms has been bad. The ones I have had ate
fish eggs and fish did not eat them. If you have a good flat worm that fish
will eat and than does not eat fish eggs, by all means try it.

Synthetic cultures are pretty tolerant when it comes to temperature.
Temperature has a different effect on soil and synthetic cultures. In soil
cultures you are dealing with oxygen permeability in soil, as well as water
retention and the chemical properties of the soil at different temperatures,
in synthetic cultures oxygen is not an issue, the media is inert and
humidity remains nearly 100% regardless of the temperature. My test grindal
worms were most productive in the 70 DF range but produced down to about
60DF and up to about 80DF the synthetic white worm which were the smaller
worms that out competed or evolved from the larger ones from a common white
worm starter culture are productive from under 50DF to about 85DF.  I
believe that there are countless types of worms masquerading as one worm or
another. When one of my grindal worm cultures crashed a tiny microworm type
population survived. It was great for fry, but as I already had microworms I
never did anything with it. You will just have to experiment with the worms
you have. As you are pretty much as far away from me in NJ USA as is
possible while still being on the same planet, it is very unlikely that the
worms I have stem from the same source as yours. For example, I have never
seen a flat worm in a grindal worm culture.  Once you start your synthetic
culture, it is likely that one worm will out compete the other. As long as
your fish eat it it will be the right worm.

Peace,

~RJ~


 > Now as to your question regarding the bacteria culture came from.
 > I really don't recall and therefore must assume that it came in
 > airborne.
If I had my boxes 'sealed' albeit for the breathing holes, do I just
wait for a bacteria colony to appear?

 > Ronnie, as you are too far away to get an established
 > synthetic culture, I will help you set up your culure
 > where you are.
Thanks RJ.  A couple of fellow hobbyists will be joining me with this
project and will likely be following this thread as well.

I'm doing a simple page for personal reference, lest I get forgetful, as
my own box progresses.  It's at;
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/fishz/grindal/Soiless/Grindal_Culture.html

 > If you are interested and once you have gotten to this point
 > let me know.
Ok RJ, now that I've gotten those stuffs, what am I to do next?

Best regards,
Ronnie Lee
Singapore



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