RE: FEL, etc-Where are we heading?

["Robert Tucker" <tucker at covad_net>]

I've been lurking as my non-member status seems to rankle a few of my fellow
killietalk subscribers but there are two points I can't resist making.

"Let some source like that become the "favored" shopping place for our fish
and eggs"

This is just silly. The BEST recruiting tool is the fish themselves! Getting
the easy fish like Gardneri et al in the hands of new people is what will
bring new members to the club not an encyclopeadic site that tells the new
killie keeper about the fish that they got elsewhere. What better way to
turn someone on to the other benefits of the club than to be there when they
purchase? There is no good reason to eshew the electronic form of the local
chapter meeting. The fact that Aquabid has more Killie listings then the
paper vesion is THE most telling fact in this debat.

There are a couple of people who postulated that the BOT cannot make a
decision without being "fair" to all members, especially those who cannot or
will not adjust to the age we live in. One post even went on to say that
this is the democratic way.

Nothing could be further from the truth. That's socialism talking there, NOT
democracy. Democracy seeks to benefit the whole by taking into account the
needs of the many. Socialism guarantees the good of ALL by fiat from above.
The currently BOT policy is to maintain the status quo (do nothing) so as
not to inconvenience or offend a few.

I feel sympathy for those who are physically unable to use a computer. I
would hope that friends and fellow members will help keep these people
involved. On the other hand, I have little sympathy for those who choose not
to use the internet or get a computer. Expecting that  the club will
accomodate this personal CHOICE is certainly putting one's own needs in
front of what would be best for the AKA.

As a side note: No amount of money or time will solve the problems of  old
browsers or Web TV. If the site is compelling enough those users will find a
way to participate. Many PCs can be made to run on TVs to increase display
size to help the nearsighted.

Considerably more that my .02

Tucker

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at AKA_Org [mailto:owner-killietalk at AKA_Org]On
Behalf Of YoHoHo at aol_com
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:15 AM
To: KillieTalk at AKA_Org
Subject: Re: FEL, etc-Where are we heading?


You make one point that I just hadn't thought about, or realized, before.
That is, that it is NOT the principal job of the AKA to be fish or egg
distributors.  It IS to be THE source of killie info (thanks for reminding
us of that,
Wright).  Someone made an observation a couple days ago about how the hobby,
as seen in local killie club meetings, has evolved into a membership of old
people.  That observation is a BRIGHT red flag, warning us of a death by
attrition.

The AKA would better serve the hobby by working on the problem of getting
the
upcoming generations informed and interested in our hobby.  EBay is alive
and
well.  Other on-line sites exist for buying, selling, trading, etc..  Let
some source like that become the "favored" shopping place for our fish and
eggs.
Let the AKA work on the many tasks to better our hobby - standardization,
up-to-date publications, topical info such as THE way to pack and ship in
todays
world, etc.......

Frank Carriglitto
AKA, ChiKA, WAKO

> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:46:02 -0700
> From: Wright Huntley <jwwiii at pacbell_net>
> Subject: Fish and eggs distribution - some generalizatrions (loooong!)
>

There has been a lot of lively discussion, here, again on this
Phoenix-like thread. [Nothing derogatory meant toward ARK! :-) The
reference was to "the bird."]

New folks want instant gratification and immediate on-line F&E, while
older, but not certainly any wiser, folks seem to want to not rock a boat
they feel has been successful and urge caution in making any changes that
might be seen as even faintly prejudicial to technophobes. ["Fairness" is
a favorite tool of the would-be-tyrant, BTW. ;-)]

Let's back off and see how folks get their fish and eggs, now. I can only
speak from my experience, so feel free to contradict any of my highly
personal conclusions, if I am in error on the facts.

Good, active local breeders gave me eggs or sold-cheap/gave me fish at
local BAKA meetings when I wanted to get back into the hobby. Along with
those eggs and fish I got a lot of hand-holding from those folks. I was an
accomplished breeder of other fish, so most of what I needed and got was
killifish-specific stuff. I'm sure it is a bit different for the aquatic
newby. [Not sure they should get killifish too early, anyway, but that is
just me.]

Earlier, before AKA, my only source of Notho eggs was through local
academic connections. A true hobby group had not formed. The San Francisco
Aquarium Society was slightly helpful, but local individuals were needed
for it to happen. [In those days (late '50s), SFAS had not driven out the
academic community, and the Peoples Republic of CA had not driven almost
all serious ichthyologists out to other states.]

Between those two situations ('60s-'80s), snail mail had become a viable
way to communicate market wants and sources, as the BNL, with F&E and N&R
became an active force in the hobby. I missed that era, so may tend to
undervalue it for today's situation, IDK. They did a great job of
introducing 17th Century technology to the hobby, anyway. :-)

I still feel that the best way to expand the hobby is to make people
successful right off the bat. Personal hand-holding can go a long way in
that direction, and that means getting down to the local level for a
vast majority of fish distributions. I suspect that it is that way, right
now, if we took a census of how folks get fish. Local club auctions can
move a whole lot of fish, fast. You get to see what you are getting, and
usually know the breeder and her reputation. [Deliberate insertion so Sue
can hopelessly try to defend her's.]

Really *new* fish get into the local club auction tables in three primary
ways:

Local folks go collecting (often with local club and/or individual
support), bring back stuff they know is craved locally, and they put the
wild fish in the hands of the most expert breeders in the club. [No
democracy here, as survival and replication is the objective.] Only at the
local level can the judgement be made as to who is responsible for those
new fish, usually. Political handling is easier, locally, to keep those
fish initially out of the hands of the known fish-killers who outbid
everyone on any new fish. Usually handled informally, between breeder and
collector, it just works best that way.

As auctions fail to turn up desired fish, local members go to Convention,
WCW, or other regional shows or even DKG, KFN, etc., and bid wildly on
stuff they know their local club wants. With club money in their pockets
and focused objectives, they can drive more casual bidders crazy, but the
needs of the hobby are being satisfied (and some exhibitors/clubs made
happy?).

Last, but not least, local clubs have been doing box exchanges on a
regular basis, recently more than just for shows. By coordinating in
advance, and communicating needs, they can help fill those local gaps in
the auction list, often at a far lower cost than bidding on rare fish at
convention. It is almost impossible for even large local clubs to have
expert breeders in all Genera of killifish. This lets members get the fish
they want, individually, even if their particular club's most productive
breeders don't produce any.

There are, certainly, some fish that come into the local club via the BNL,
but my guess is that they are mighty few and far between, when compared to
the others.

Please Note: Up to here, I have not mentioned e-mail, web, or any of that
techie stuff, for those are a new and, so-far, relatively minor part of
the trade/hobby. We are still feeling our way, here, but we certainly are
misusing, if not abusing, the technologies in some ways. It is a learning
process, I think.

A few fish certainly arrive because folks contact each other on the list
and swap eggs or fish, or buy Aquabid (or at some other weird source like
the LFS). I, personally have sent eggs or fish to South Africa, Argentina,
Japan, France, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands and I forget where all
else, receiving fish or eggs back from some and even from really foreign
places like Hawaii. [Gotcha, Mach! :-)]

What role should AKA play in all this? Early on, its primary contribution
was just getting folks in touch with each other, via JAKA, Killy Notes,
BNL, etc. Later, it (rather sloppily) took some responsibility for getting
the names straight. Ken Lazara's KMI could be combined with Roger
Langton's _Collections..._ to keep nomenclature and collection information
with the fish, to stop the inadvertent hybridization that had wiped out
some nice fish, earlier. Various BOTs have given lip service to this
function, but most didn't realize the importance of the contributions of
Ken and Roger. [Sneakily, getting them straight by mandating KMI in the
F&E listing has gone a long way to improving the situation.]

AKA is the national coordinating body for the killifish hobby in the USA.
It should, IMHO, coordinate and lead us on a path to an ever better hobby
experience. Nomenclature, judging standards and training, show scheduling,
specialized publications, education and conservation are all activities
that may need such national coordination. Selling fish is simply not one
of them!

If the hobby is sound and strong, the fish *will* get distributed. It may
be commercially, or by word-of-mouth or by clubs, folks will find ways to
get fish to fulfill their hobby needs. [I did, in 1958, without any AKA,
so know it can be done.]

Let's concentrate on using the rare volunteer hours for doing things that
will improve the hobby. If we truly don't have enough fish, then F&E
(on-line or on-dead-tree) may be worth doing. If we need new species,
funding and supervising collections could be a way to go. My perspective
is that neither of these are important enough to come much above the
horizon for AKA, right now. [My apologies to those new folks who *do* have
a helluva time getting nice fish under present circumstances.]

I'm with Bobby in that the BOT needs to lead us, and that feedback is only
real after they have taken some action. We support it or let them know.
Simple. They should have the general condition of the hobby as a goal, and
not "Fairness" or other such politically-correct garbage. IMHO, that
involves a lot more concentration on overall hobby improvement and a lot
less on meeting needs of individuals. [Improve the hobby and their boat
will float up with the rest.]

I perceive a loss of breeders, in our area, that is little short of
devastating. IDK if AKA can inject N. CA with the husbandry skills (and
collecting and administrative) we have lost in the last 5 years, but the
local club hasn't made it happen, that's for sure. Is this a local
transient, or is it widespread? [If the latter, I'm not sure I want to
know it, but the BOT probably should.]

I can propose a lot of ways the new technology can make it a better hobby.
Beside the obvious one of web sites as recruitment tools, <www.aka.org>
<www.sfbaka.net> we could make up a standardized spelling dictionary with
every species and collection code/location correctly spelled and
connected, so that typing labels for the club auction almost guarantees
proper nomenclature.

I have added a couple of on-line databases to my Word spell-check library,
such that I almost never get a red squiggly underline (unless it is a
typo) on a fish name. Mine's not ready for prime time, and falls within
"fair use" where a published version would need copyright clearance.
Nevertheless, AKA could do that and make it available to members,
newsletter editors, web tyrants, what have you. [It might require tables
from both KMI and KilliData be combined if those authors can cooperate.
Imagine Ken getting Jean Huber to accept a non-French spelling! :-)]

I have no experience with local shows, having only attended WCW and
Convention. I know some are great (they gave me a trophy, so I have to say
that). Right now, there is no AKA-sponsored coordination of boxes from
other clubs to support those shows. It would be a negligible drain on the
treasury for AKA to reimburse any affiliate sending a box to another
affiliate's show, twice the shipping cost. Yes, twice! It won't buy a
couple of rounds of Pizza, but it would send a message that AKA supports
those shows (*and* those who support them with fish entries).

Encouraging breeders by getting prices above the usual $2 at club auctions
might help a lot. I have no idea how to do that, tho, and F&E hasn't been
much help, lately.

I can go on with endless suggestions (probably equally wacky) to improve
the hobby, that could be done at the national level. I just hope I have
made a few sit back and evaluate where, in the scheme of things, an
on-line F&E list really should fit.

It is a hobby. We do it for the fun of it. What should the AKA BOT do to
further that? [They have quite a bit of money, but damned few solid
volunteers.] Perhaps we should try to make it more fun for them, too. :-)

Ranting, well inland from the left coast. [Is my rhetoric slanting any
more to the right, now?]

Wright

- --

Wright Huntley -- 760 872-3995 -- Rt. 001 Box K36, Bishop CA 93514

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? www.sfbaka.net


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