[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Soft water Cu sub chronic toxicity RE: Cu/Zn dechlorination was: Recycling activated charcoal

To: <killietalk at aka_org>
Subject: Soft water Cu sub chronic toxicity RE: Cu/Zn dechlorination was: Recycling activated charcoal
From: "David Lains" <david at zfin_org>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:38:15 -0800
Importance: Normal
In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.2.20030205005534.04193da8 at postoffice_mail.cornell.edu>

Hi Barry

The water system in the quarantine room had been a carbon dechlorinated
continuous flow system.  The fish never did well so we started looking at
the fish with histology.  The chloride cells in the gill were damaged and it
was linked to copper in the literature.  There are some references to both
general hardness and Karbonate hardness and their effects on copper toxicity
in Fish Medicine by Stoskopf.  I can not locate the exact reference for the
chloride cell damage but should be able to when Jen Matthews returns from
vacation.

This article examined the toxicity of water hardness and its effects on
larval zebrafish embryos: (Meinelt, T and Stueber, A.  Subchronic fish
toxicity of copper and zinc dependent upon water hardness, Advances in
fisheries science 1995).

So anyway our water treatment company suggested that we add a water softener
to remove Ca and MG but it would also remove the Cu.  Well it did remove all
of those, the copper went from around 1 ppm down to 9 ppb (analyzed via the
EPA Copper 220.2 method).  Unfortunately the removal of the general hardness
from the water and our lack of karbonate hardness actually made the water
several times more toxic!  The hardness was non detectable with standard
aquaculture kits (LaMotte).

We placed new fish on the system after each change to the water system.  The
fish were sampled for histology after some time in the room and were
compared to fish from the main room.  The main room fish never showed
symptoms of chloride cell damage but the Quarantine room fish on the water
softened flow through system did.  The symptoms did not disappear until we
went to intermittent water changes using salted RO water.

The symptoms were chronic not acute.  The main symptom was chloride cell
damage and that the fish would not breed, a major draw back in a stock
center.  We spent about 6 months working this out.

You are always welcome to stop by for a visit!  Maybe we could go over this
with Jen when she returns from vacation.

Best Fishes
David Lains <}}}><
Research Assistant
Zebrafish International Resource Center
University of Oregon


><{{{>-----Original Message-----
><{{{>From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
><{{{>Behalf Of Barry Cooper
><{{{>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:00 AM
><{{{>To: killietalk at aka_org
><{{{>Subject: RE: Cu/Zn dechlorination was: Recycling activated charcoal
><{{{>
><{{{>
><{{{>David,
><{{{>
><{{{>I'm curious as to how you established that Cu at those levels
><{{{>cause the
><{{{>gill damage. Frankly, I am a little dubious. Cu is an essential
><{{{>micronutrient, as Wright alluded to, and at those levels I would have
><{{{>guessed that it would be functioning as such, not as a toxin.
><{{{>Having said
><{{{>that, I know that my water contains < 2 ppb (< 0.002 ppm) copper.
><{{{>
><{{{>Barry
><{{{>
><{{{>At 02:01 PM 2/4/2003 -0800, you wrote:
><{{{>>We had chloride cell damage in zebrafish gills at copper
><{{{>levels as low as 5
><{{{>>parts per BILLION! in soft water.  Copper toxicity decreases
><{{{>with increase
><{{{>>general hardness.  Food for thought.
><{{{>>
><{{{>>Best fishes
><{{{>>David
><{{{>>
><{{{>> ><{{{>-----Original Message-----
><{{{>> ><{{{>From: owner-killietalk at aka_org
><{{{>[mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
><{{{>> ><{{{>Behalf Of George Slusarczuk
><{{{>> ><{{{>Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 8:53 AM
><{{{>> ><{{{>To: killietalk at aka_org
><{{{>> ><{{{>Subject: Re: Cu/Zn dechlorination was: Recycling
><{{{>activated charcoal
><{{{>> ><{{{>
><{{{>> ><{{{>
><{{{>> ><{{{>Hello Lee,
><{{{>> ><{{{>
><{{{>> ><{{{>I share your worry, that copper/zinc are probably
><{{{>leaching into the
><{{{>> ><{{{>water. We have known for a long time, that copper
><{{{>leaches from fresh
><{{{>> ><{{{>copper pipes. In order to act as a _filter_ (at 4
><{{{>gal/min flow) the
><{{{>> ><{{{>Cu/Zn surface area has to be huge. Leaching is almost
><{{{>inevitable.
><{{{>> ><{{{>
><{{{>> ><{{{>If it is a _couple_, than by definition both copper
><{{{>and zinc ions will
><{{{>> ><{{{>be in solution at some time. What happens to those ions?
><{{{>> ><{{{>
><{{{>> ><{{{>Best,
><{{{>> ><{{{>
><{{{>> ><{{{>George
><{{{>> ><{{{>
><{{{>> ><{{{>
><{{{>> ><{{{>
><{{{>> ><{{{>LeeH920226 at aol_com wrote:
><{{{>> ><{{{>>
><{{{>> ><{{{>> In a message dated 2/4/03 1:22:53 PM,
><{{{>jwwiii at pacbell_net writes:
><{{{>> ><{{{>>
><{{{>> ><{{{>> <<  Can
><{{{>> ><{{{>> anyone explain exactly what is different about this
><{{{>product and the
><{{{>> ><{{{>> common Cu-Zn alloy (aka brass) used for plumbing fixtures
><{{{>> ><{{{>for centuries? :-)
><{{{>> ><{{{>> >>
><{{{>> ><{{{>>
><{{{>> ><{{{>> Maybe I can, now that I read more about it. I believe this
><{{{>> ><{{{>is a zinc/copper
><{{{>> ><{{{>> couple not an alloy. There is a lot more information at
><{{{>> ><{{{>other sites than the
><{{{>> ><{{{>> one I cited first. Such as:
><{{{>> ><{{{>> http://www.tbaytel.net/gjgourle/index.htm
><{{{>> ><{{{>> http://www.purewaterforu.com/whatiskdf.html
><{{{>> ><{{{>> http://www.naturalsolutions1.com/rainbal1.htm
><{{{>> ><{{{>> http://www.kdfft.com/
><{{{>> ><{{{>>
><{{{>> ><{{{>>     The claims about removing chloramine are a little
><{{{>> ><{{{>vague. Rates may be
><{{{>> ><{{{>> slower and may not work under some conditions. Another
><{{{>> ><{{{>concern that I have is
><{{{>> ><{{{>> the inhibiting effects claimed on biological activity,
><{{{>> ><{{{>especially focused on
><{{{>> ><{{{>> microorganisms, but what about fish, daphnia, etc.? What is
><{{{>> ><{{{>the fate of the
><{{{>> ><{{{>> copper and zinc? Is it leached into the effluent
><{{{>gradually? Will the
><{{{>> ><{{{>> concentration of zinc and copper be harmful?
><{{{>> ><{{{>>     Someone may have to run an experiment ;-?
><{{{>> ><{{{>>
><{{{>> ><{{{>> Lee Harper
><{{{>> ><{{{>> Media, PA
><{{{>> ><{{{>> USA
><{{{>> ><{{{>> ---------------
><{{{>> ><{{{>> See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
><{{{>> ><{{{>> Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/AKA/Applic.htm
><{{{>> ><{{{>---------------
><{{{>> ><{{{>See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
><{{{>> ><{{{>Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/AKA/Applic.htm
><{{{>> ><{{{>
><{{{>>
><{{{>>---------------
><{{{>>See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
><{{{>>Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/AKA/Applic.htm
><{{{>
><{{{>
><{{{>Barry J. Cooper, Prof. Emeritus, Dept. Biomedical Sciences,
><{{{>Cornell University
><{{{>Adjunct faculty, College of Veterinary Medicine, Oregon State
><{{{>University
><{{{>Home address: 27505 Riggs Hill Rd., Sweet Home, OR 97386
><{{{>(bjc3 at cornell_edu)
><{{{>
><{{{>
><{{{>---------------
><{{{>See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
><{{{>Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/AKA/Applic.htm
><{{{>

---------------
See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/AKA/Applic.htm

References:
- RE: Cu/Zn dechlorination was: Recycling activated charcoal
  - From: Barry Cooper <bjc3 at cornell_edu>

Prev by Date: Re: Question about salt
Next by Date: Re: Soft water Cu sub chronic toxicity RE: Cu/Zn dechlorination was: Recycling activated charcoal
Previous by thread: RE: Cu/Zn dechlorination was: Recycling activated charcoal
Next by thread: Re: Cu/Zn dechlorination was: Recycling activated charcoal
Index(es):
- Date
- Thread