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RE: Peat
The muriatic acid you would obtain at a Home Depot is essentially the same
strength that you get as lab grade hydrochloric acid. The solution is about
35% HCl if I recall and the math works out to a concentration of about 10 M
(molar). To blow your mind a little, that calculates to a pH of -1 (yes
minus one). If you dilute it by a factor of a thousand, you get a solution
about 0.01 M which would give you a pH of about 2, essentially that of
acetic acid (Heinz white vinegar!) and a fluid ounce of that solution in a
nearly full (80%) 10 gallon tank of water should drop a pH of 7 to about 5
(about another 1000 fold dilution).
Dave Koran
-----Original Message-----
From: Tranquility Base [mailto:TranquilityBase at NetZero_Net]
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 1:03 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: RE: Peat
Hi Bill,
2 gal of muriatic acid costs about $5.00 at home depot. It will acidify
thousands of gal of tap water, if not tens of thousands of gal's, depending
on where you are starting from and how far you need to go. As muriatic acid
is only HCl there are very few byproducts other than common harmless salts.
So what's a little toxic vapor and personal risk when you are saving so much
money???
This product is strongly counter-recommended for people with toddlers in
their homes! And as you brought it up, I just want to mention, that it
takes about a full day for the pH to stabilize. Within a few minutes of
adding the acid, the pH crashes, then it slowly comes back up over the next
23 or so hours. At this point, if the pH is correct, you can use the water
for your fish. They will love it. I use some slightly more acid water to
incubate eggs in and get better hatch rates with some fish. This is similar
to people who add peat to their incubation containers.
Finally as I have mentioned in the past I never mix the water when my fish
are in it. I mix my water, age it, And when I am sure it is right add it to
my fish tank. Adding acid to an established fish tank can be more lethal
than putting peat in.
Peat does a wonderful job of acidifying the water and softening it. But
unlike acid it does not stop in a few hours, it just keeps on going and
going as long as the peat is left in. It is similar to continuously dripping
acid into a fish tank. I suspect that people that are successful with peat
in their tanks do lots of water changes to keep the water in "balance" or
have very hard water to begin with. Fish can take pH fluctuation as long as
the pH stays within certain parameters. But I doubt whether this is the very
best way to do it.
Peace,
~RJ~
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf Of William Ruyle
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 11:49 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: Re: Peat
Gosh, RJ,
I was reading down thru your peat/ph grocery list and didn't see "muriatic
acid" mentioned.
It's universally accepted that you are "on the point of the spear" to its
more avant-garde
uses. <VBG>
Happy New Year, RJ!
Bill
forest at copper_net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tranquility Base" <TranquilityBase at NetZero_Net>
To: <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 10:15 PM
Subject: RE: Peat
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
> So, 'tis I that launches the last firestorm of the year. I concede that
> there may still be some good reasons to use peat in the killie fish room
but
> I maintain that its popularity is fading with its usefulness. The primary
> reasons are:
>
> 1) Peat reduces the pH and softens the water until many fish stress and
die.
> 2) Tanks with peat require more water changes.
> 3) Many Nothos spawn very well over fine black sand
> 4) Many Fp spawn fine over gravel or bottom mops
> 5) Many SA Annuals spawn in coconut fiber
> 6) Many people have water that is sufficiently soft and additional
softening
> is not required
> 7) There are better products to reduce pH.
> 8) The best time to prepare water is before it is added to the fish tank.
> Peat may be appropriate when preparing the water but is not required in
the
> fish tank itself.
> 9) Many top breeders have been steadily reducing the amount of peat that
> they use as better methods are developed and they are still having great
> success.
> 10) Many killies do not need super soft and acid water.
> 11) Peat can tint the water.
> 12) Peat can clog the filter
> 13) Most newbies kill more fish improperly using peat than they benefit
from
> it.
> 14) Many people have used peat for years and will never ever change
> regardless if there is a better method. To those stubborn diehards I say:
>
> Happy New Year!
>
> Peace,
>
> ~RJ~
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
> Behalf Of Brian R. Watters
> Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 6:27 PM
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Subject: RE: Peat
>
>
> Dave Wood wrote:
>
> >
> > I've only been breeding killies for about 30 years, and (honestly) don't
> > claim to be an expert. The only problems with peat that I have had are
> > 1) it is messy. Don't use it with gravel. In a bare tank it is not a
major
> > problem.
> > 2) if you use the wrong types you will get problems. eg avoid sedge
> > peat...my fish don't like it at all.(they die.)
> > 3) if hatching nothos, remove the fry from peat asap, and grow
> > them in hard
> > water. Since doing this I have had no velvet attacks.
> > 4) it colours water and affects pH. Not a major problem...you can
> > always use the water for tetras.
> >
>
> If the peat moss is placed in a container (with a hole cut in the lid)
> within an aquarium with a bare base, then most of these cease to be a
> problem. Most Nothos and SA annuals will readily enter such a container to
> spawn. A certain amount of peat will be thrown out and end up on the tank
> bottom but that will be minimal and can be siphoned out when doing regular
> water changes. With the peat contained in that way, there will also be
> minimal coloring of the water. It is also very easy to harvest the peat
when
> it is in such a container and there is much less risk of the peat becoming
> polluted from uneaten food, faeces, etc.
>
> I have found some Notho species that, for various reasons, cannot
> successfully be spawned with the peat in a container and, for those, one
is
> forced to cover the base of the tank with a layer of peat moss. It is then
> necessary to be particularly careful about overfeeding, or the fish can be
> placed in the breeding tank for short periods only, specifically for
> spawning purposes. The latter method is, for example, the only practical
way
> to spawn N. ocellatus.
>
> In my opinion, anyone who uses gravel in a tank that is set up to spawn
> annuals, while using peat as a spawning medium, is simply making life
> difficult for themselves.
>
> I agree that it is best to remove newly-hatched Notho fry from the
hatching
> container and away from the peat as soon as it is reasonable. They are
> especially prone to velvet at this stage. It is not the peat itself that
is
> the culprit but rather the brine shrimp nauplii that get into the peat,
die
> and decay. Also, if left standing undisturbed excessively long, the peat
in
> the hatching tray will start to decay and generate gases that, when the
peat
> is stirred up, will kill the fry almost instantly.
>
> As Tony Terciera has pointed out, coconut "peat" can be used but it
should,
>
> as he suggests, be diluted with normal spaghnam peat moss. On its own it
is
> too coarse and granular (many Nothos don't like it as much as finer peat)
> and it does not have the water retention properties that normal peat has.
I
> mix it in with normal peat to the extent of about 20-25% only. I have
proven
> to my own satisfaction that Nothos prefer fine peat but that is not always
> practical because it is more easily ejected from the container and ends up
> all over the tank, plugs up filters, etc., so some sort of a compromise is
> necessary. Very often, when I remove peat from a tank I will add some
moist
> fine peat (from peat pellets) before I bag the medium for storage and
> incubation of the eggs. This improves the moisture retention properties
and
> brings the eggs into contact with moist peat particles, which I feel is
> better for their incubation.
>
> Lee Harper wrote:
>
> >
> > I will add another use for peat is to reduce the number of belly
> > sliders when water incubating annual fishes...........
> >
>
> I agree and, for that reason, when hatching Nothos I have always ensured
> that there is at least a half inch of layer of peat on the base of the
> hatching container. If necessary I place additional peat (preferably old,
> well soaked or reused peat) in the hatching tray to make up any perceived
> shortfall. A long time ago I discovered that if you pick out eyed-up eggs
> from a spawning and place them in water without a reasonable amount of
peat
> the eggs will either simply not hatch or the proportion of belly-sliders
> will be very high.
>
> Peat moss is nothing like the substrate that typically occurs in Notho
> habitats but it, nevertheless, seems to provide conditions that suit both
> the breeding fish and the eggs during incubation, and it is a very
> convenient medium for us to use.
> ___________________________________________
> Brian R. Watters
> University of Regina
> Regina, Sask. S4S 0A2, Canada
> Ph: (306) 584-9161 (home); (306) 585-4663 (work)
> Fax: (306) 585-5433
> E-mail: bwatters at sk_sympatico.ca
>
>
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