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RE: Skinny Notho females



Hi Robert,

Good to see your using the *shotgun* approach. An extra cure or two rarely
hurts.

When it comes to Notho-fade-away I have seen and cured it several times. I
first started getting it in tanks that had power filters or had an air pump
of their very own. It was caused by the current or over aeration. It is
surprising how fast the onset can be! One day the fish are fine the next the
fish are big time hollow. And the females usually go first. This was easy to
fix. Reduce the aeration and kill the power filters.

Then complacency set in. And the condition reappeared with a vengeance when
I missed water changes. Change the water and the fish plumped up again.
That's all there is to it. I do not know what actually builds up in the tank
when the water changes are missed but I know that when I change most of the
water the fish recover post haste. Simple. (Fish that have faded for too
long are usually goners, but as the condition is not contagious there is no
reason to remove them.)

Recently after missing a few water changes I noticed that one male Notho was
actually lying on its side. It was paper thin. The female of the pair was
also hollowed out, I did a water change and she plumped right up and he
continued to slide around on the bottom, usually in his side, in relatively
good color for several months eating but not spawning until I missed another
water change. (Lately my work schedule has taken me away from spending the
kind of time with my fish I would like to.) I kept him going just to see if
he would ever completely recover. Although the damage was permanent. It
makes my point.

I hatch the eggs from generations of healthy parents. I usually bleach out
my tanks between generations and I bleach dip my nets and siphon hoses. I
keep a very high level of quarantine. Although even I admit nothing is
perfect. I breed just about all of my own food in my synthetic white worm
and grindle cultures. No store bought live food is ever introduced....ever.
I have long since ruled out the disease model of the condition in my case.

I would hasten to add that it is not impossible to get intestinal parasites
in Nothos, just unlikely. They are usually not kept in community tanks where
other fish bring in the disease and as generations rarely see each other
there are very few diseases that can make it through the dry incubation
period. And yet among killies Nothos are the most likely to fade away.

As far as the "culminaris" goes. I have had it on new Nothos that came in
from elsewhere. If they get into fade away condition they are very
susceptible to almost any disease that might be present in your water. But I
have a rule every fish I have goes through quarantine, sometimes its whole
life, if I have even the slightest doubt. I have found some awesome diseases
in my quarantine tanks that came in from very reputable sources. But I do
not let them get away from there. If you are having multiple issues in your
fish room you might have to upgrade your quarantine procedures and work your
way through the problems. In my case a few years ago I began bleaching out
one tank after another. It seemed to take forever. But once a tank was
thoroughly cleaned no diseases ever came back. I finally did this because I
discovered that a tank that I thought was clean for several months could
become suddenly reinvested without warning after a weather change or totally
without warning. I had a stubborn culminaris type disease that came back
every six to eight months in that one tank. Just when I thought it was safe
to put fish into the water  again....its back.  I had some very nice plants
in that tank and one GAR that not only had a very unusual color pattern but
was absolutely immune. The now very old oddball GAR is living out his life
in a 2.5 gal quarantine tank. I put in a female of the same type and she
became infected even after he had been in quarantine for several months. As
she came from the same stock, she apparently also had a resistance to the
disease and recovered. I have never collected eggs, nor fry. If I ever do, t
he offspring would also be in quarantine most likely forever.

The problem with some diseases is that if you do not wipe them out
COMPLETELY they come back again and again. Most recently I picked up a pair
of Trig. that Rosario LeCorte diagnosed as having TB. I'll take his word for
it. It struck after about a week. With treatment I was able to maintain and
breed the fish for about two months. The disease never made it out of
quarantine and no harm no foul. If any of the eggs hatch they will spend
their young lives in quarantine. Without quarantine I would most likely be
out of the hobby by now. If your problems seem to be generalized throughout
your fish room. Bleach out one tank at a time. If possible dispose of
infected fish or consolidate them. Once you set up the tank again mark it
"clean". Nothing from your other tanks ever goes back into it. And keep
expanding your clean area until your entire fish room except your quarantine
tanks are known disease free. Then maintain quarantine just in case. In my
experience this is just about the only way to maintain the rare and precious
fish we all love.

Peace,

~RJ~

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf Of RuevenM at aol_com
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:50 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: Skinny Notho females


Hi All,

        Thanks for all the help. I am glad to see that others have found
flubendazole to be a godsend. When Gary Harmon-Hobbs told me about it early
last year and a friend here gave me some to get rid of hydra, I was stunned
at how well it worked. It also indirectly cured, at that time, several
female
Xiphophorus nezahualcoyotl that I had isolated with livebearer wasting
disease. I treated their tank for hydra and a few days later they started
putting on weight. My friend here used it to treat internal parasites in
Apistos -- their wasting disease. The Apisto people came up with the 1/2 tsp
per 30 gallons dose, but I have always used a bit more. Now it seems that
almost 2 tsps per 30 gallons is the effective dose (Barry's and Dan's
emails).
    My problem has now appeared in a tank of F. arnoldi and in some
Xiphophorus clemencae. With the Nothos it looks like most of the females
have
an internal parasite, but a couple had what I feel was columnaris too -- the
two that died. They had all the external behavior of a columnaris infection.
Two males had columnaris, one is alive still. Most of the males look 100%
ok.
I have 2 tsp of flubendazole 5% in the 30 gallon tank, furacyn and 2 tsp of
salt per gallon. (The baby brine shrimp stays alive ALL day now!). The water
is now hard and alkaline and the box filter is trickling out air. I will do
50% water changes daily and re-treat for 5 days. I have gotten the
temperature down to 77F and will try for 75F with a fan directly on the
tank.
    The arnoldi have obvious columnaris -- some bloat and white patches on
the body. I destroyed 10 that showed the disease and treated the rest --
flubendazole for the thin females and furacyn for the bacteria -- no salt
and
the water is soft and acid. I have lowered their temperature to 75F with
open
tops and lowered water level.
      I have added new nets and a new siphon hose so I can isolate the
infection. I don't know where it came from but have 5 theories:
1.  from pure and simple heat stress.
2. from overfeeding blackworms.
3. from some latipinna green sailfin mollies that I got and one male died of
columnaris but all the rest were fine and their fry are fine.
4. from my local fish store.
5. a combo of the above.

   Now, good news, the Betta strohi I asked about have already spawned after
just one week. The male looks like he swallowed a small marble. Wish me
luck.
What do I do with mouthbrooding bettas? Separate the sexes now?

Robert
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