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Re: KillieTalk Digest V4 #261



Acriflavine should be available at any good retail outlet. Often under the brand name 'Aquatronics'. Methylene Blue should be too. It seems to aid oxygen supply. I normally use a combination of both. I have also at times added a small amount of 'zinc free' (low as possible) malachite green. Normally for parasites, it does seem to aid egg hatch rates. All are put out by 'Aquatronics'.  

I would also caution making too large a water change if using fresh water. A 25% addition of fresh may cause small bubbles to form on the sides of the glass. This may create 'gas bubble disease' similar to 'nitrogenosus' from water under pressure then released like the spillways of dams. A 25% fresh addition can cause short gill covers on angelfish. Some damage may take weeks to show, like liver and kidney problems.

Methylene Blue alone is often sufficient to prevent outbreaks of bacteria. Ultraviolet radiation is what I normally use with near perfect results. I ended up replicating (cloning) females in the early sixties by attempting to purify the water containing eggs and roe recently harvested. The radiation killed off the DNA in the milt (sperm) and did not affect the viability of the little 'polywogs'. Bumping up the baro pressure to force tetracycline into the eggs whilst still soft doubled the chromosones. So the female was replicated. This was explained to me by Dr George Streisinger of the University of Oregon Institute of Molecular Biology in the late sixties. So I may have some of this wrong. The Zebra Danios I supplied him with were the original strains for the 'ZFIN' websites and others and all the current research with diseases, genomes, DNA, and genetic engineering. One lady at MIT has around 150 tanks of the zebras I believe for kidney and diabetes research.  

That zfin website has lots of info on harvesting milt and roe. You want an apple, go pick it. You want fish, go take it. That site mentions many bacteria preventives. Cleanliness was of utmost importance with artificial breeding. In fact if you have only a female of a specie, the milt from most any similar male will do the same job as an identical male. Sometimes helpful in keeping a strain.

Roger Hawthorne
----- Original Message -----
From: Owner-KillieTalk at AKA_Org
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 12:33 PM
To: Owner-KillieTalk at AKA_Org
Subject: KillieTalk Digest V4 #261
  

KillieTalk Digest        Tuesday, July 23 2002        Volume 04 : Number 261



In this issue:

Re: Spell checker
Re: Spell checker
A. Congicum
Re: Fungus on eggs
Re:  Daphnia?
Re: Daphnia?
Re: Smog Pump
Re: Fungus on eggs
Re: Spell checker
RE: Spell checker
RE: Acriflavin and egg hardening.
Re: Rotifer cultures?
Re: Spell checker
Re: Spell checker
Re: Fungus on eggs
AW: Rotifer cultures?

See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing from the
KillieTalk mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.

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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:02:15 -0400
From: "Al Anderson" <killiman at iquest_net>
Subject: Re: Spell checker

THANK YOU VERY MUCH




Geee you made me dance a jig

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "William Vannerson" <William_Vannerson at ama-assn_org>
To: <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Spell checker


Before folks go off and spend a whoIe lot of time, I have two custom
dictionary files for Microsoft Word that I created based upon the KMI4 data.
It's in two files because MS Word limits the size of a custom dictionary
file.

If folks can be a little patient, I can upload these files to the ChiKA
website and create a link for you to download.  I can also combine them into
a single text file for those of you who use another word processor and want
to create your own dictionary using other tools.


Bill Vannerson
McHenry, IL
http://vannerson.home.att.net/


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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:25:44 -0700
From: Wright Huntley <jwwiii at pacbell_net>
Subject: Re: Spell checker

LeeH920226 at aol_com wrote:
> In a message dated 7/23/02 7:28:27 AM, killiman at iquest_net writes:
>
> << I was asking to see if any one had them in a file or list they could
>
> download to me.  >>
>
> I was a reviewing proofreader for Dr. Ken Lazara in the preparation of KMI4
> and I can foresee some problems with a spell checker based on the KMI. The
> first and foremost problem is that the text contains many deliberate
> misspellings because they are part of the literature. Would you want the
> spell checker to include them? I don't think so.

snip...

I should think you would want them included. Just because an original
describer cannot spell, does not mean that his nomenclature has not been
accepted as the correct name for that species. In that situation, we are
obligated to propagate the spelling mistake in the interest of
scientific continuity/traceability, aren't we?

Please correct me here, if I'm wrong about this.

Wright

- --
Wright Huntley -- 209 521-0557 -- 731 Loletta Ave, Modesto CA 95351

"The right of self-government does not comprehend the government of others."
                                 -- Thos. Jefferson --

That's what Independence Day is all about, isn't it? <www.self-gov.org>


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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:42:23 -0500
From: George & Melanie Caruso <caraway at erienet_net>
Subject: A. Congicum

I have lost my male A. congicum. If anyone out there has a extra male
they would be willing to sell please contact me off list @
caraway at erienet_net.
Thanks,
George


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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:53:47 -0700
From: Wright Huntley <jwwiii at pacbell_net>
Subject: Re: Fungus on eggs

Chris Browning wrote:
> The package says ACTIVE INGREDIENTS: nitrofurazone, furazolidone, potassium dichromate.  None of which I know what they are. I just took the eggs out of their little place, poured as much of the water out as i could without pouring eggs out, and made a very dilluted solution, just barely had a green tint. When I poured out the water though, I noticed that some of the eggs were dyed blue, very blue. Will this hurt them any? What should I do now?
>


That is *not* the same as the Fungus Guard I have used in the past. It
contains two strong antibiotics and a tanning agent. The color probably
comes from the latter, potassium dichromate. One thing for sure, you are
not likely to have any bad bacteria on those eggs! :-)

I have noticed that sometimes a few eggs will take the dye and the
others will not. Those that were dark seem to have died, while the live
eggs that go on to hatch did not get so deep blue. The anti-bacterial
properties of the dye keep the eggs from spoiling so fast so fungus does
not get much of any way to start.

I go along with the suggestions of others that changing clean water,
often, in very shallow containers is more important than medicines.

That Java moss was a good suggestion, too. It usually has rotifers and
paramecia that eat free-swimming bacteria and keep the water cleaner.
They then provide some good, easy-to-catch first foods when the babies
hatch.

Wright

>   Wright Huntley <jwwiii at pacbell_net> wrote:
>
> Chris Browning wrote:
>
>>Ok, so stop using the Fungus Clear?
>
>
> Read the ingredients. As I recall, Jungle always lists them, and the
> Fungus Clear is probably just salt and acriflavin (or is that Fungus
> Guard?). For eggs, use at way below normal dose levels if it is acriflavin.
>
>
>
>>Well, I just typed a bunch on asking if I could use Rid Ich from Kordon, but then I finally found where it lists the active ingredients, one being Formaldehyde. Well, I guess I'll do some more searching around and try and find something else, I'll first look for what you suggested.
>>Tyrone Genade wrote: On 22 Jul 2002, at 23:08, Chris Browning wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I just acquired my first killifish eggs through the mail, and was told
>>>to use Acriflavin in the water to keep them from getting fungus. I
>>>have searched and searched but can't find anywhere to buy it from! So
>>>I bought Jungle brand Fungus clear. Will this work? AND, I have also
>>>heard that the dye some of the chemicals use can actually dye, and
>>>harden the eggs to a point where the fish can not even break free! Is
>>>this true?! And if so, what should I do?
>>
>
> Many dyes and formaldehyde work in very similar ways. They are "tanning"
> agents that are able to cross-link adjacent proteins and make them
> tougher. That can kill bacteria, but don't overdo it to the point of
> staining the eggs much or you may make their chorion too tough to hatch
> easily, when the time comes.
>
> Clean water, frequently changed at first, is probably more important.
> The eggs need plenty of oxygen and freedom from bacteria and decay
> products that can produce ammonia or other toxic substances. I like
> shallow Petri dishes for hatching, as the large surface area assures
> fairly good oxygen content.
>
> Wright
>


- --
Wright Huntley -- 209 521-0557 -- 731 Loletta Ave, Modesto CA 95351

"The right of self-government does not comprehend the government of others."
                                 -- Thos. Jefferson --

That's what Independence Day is all about, isn't it? <www.self-gov.org>


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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:52:45 -0700
From: "Al Mikkelsen" <almikk at harborside_com>
Subject: Re:  Daphnia?

Hi Robert,

My son David has them thay seem smaller today than in the 70's but the color
is as good!
Thank you for the info on the cultures!
Keep em spawning
Al Mikkelsen


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <RuevenM at aol_com>
To: <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 10:15 PM
Subject: Daphnia?


> Hi Al,
>
>        Look in the "want ads" in the back of FAMA or TFH and there is a
> company there based in Mississippi that sells all sorts of live food
cultures
> and has daphnia. They send useful instructions but I like my method
better.
> They can get you started. They have a website but I forget the address. I
> think it is <www.lfscultures.com>.
>     Do you still raise those giant blue gularis like you did in the 70's
when
> you were chairman?
>
> Robert Ellermann
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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:05:39 -0700
From: "Al Mikkelsen" <almikk at harborside_com>
Subject: Re: Daphnia?

Thank you Mark!

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Barnett" <mark at fishlinkcentral_com>
To: <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: Daphnia?


> AquaBid.com
> http://www.aquabid.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > Is there a place I can buy daphnia? And good instructions to grow them?
> > Al Mikkelsen
>
>
>
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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:20:21 -0400
From: "Ron Schulz" <beemster at bestweb_net>
Subject: Re: Smog Pump

  It seems to me that these smog pumps will be quite a bit more expensive in
the long run if they require 1/3 or even 1/4 horsepower motors to run them.
I estimate a 1/3 HP motor at about 350W. Even the largest linear piston
(5.2cfm / $425) pump (probaby good for nearly 200 outlets) only consumes
120W.  The 230W difference @ 10 cents/kwh comes to about $140 per year. The
cost will cross over in about 3 years. In addition, I think very few killie
people need the largest  linear piston pump.
.......................just my 2 cents worth..............Ron



- -- Original Message -----
From: "William Vannerson" <William_Vannerson at ama-assn_org>
To: <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Smog Pump


Norm has had such a unit running in his fishroom for years.  It's not quiet,
but it's not annoyingly loud either.  I have a photo that I took that I'll
try to post to the ChiKA web site in a few days.

The one shown on the linked page has a few interesting features.  One, the
fan mounted on the motor shaft to help cool the motor is a novel concept.
If the the unit is in the fish room, it could help circulate the air in the
room.  Two, the air intake is piped in from another room to reduce
condensation.  I did notice that line has a 90 degree elbow.  The air will
"pile up" and compress at this point, increasing the noise.  You want smooth
turns to reduce this effect.  I also know folks who have added mufflers
after the pump, a glass jar with filter material will reduce the noise and
provide mechanical filtration for dust and other airborn matter, especially
carbon from the wearing vanes. (see
http://www.thekrib.com/Filters/air-pumps.html for a better explanation)

Bill Vannerson
McHenry, IL
http://vannerson.home.att.net/


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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:31:19 +0200
From: "Tyrone Genade" <Tgenade at sun_ac.za>
Subject: Re: Fungus on eggs

On 23 Jul 2002, at 1:57, Chris Browning wrote:

>
>  Well, I went on Yahoo and searched for "Tetra General Tonic" and
>  EVERYTHING that came up was in German or Swedish or something.

Try http://www.tetra-fish.com but it is quite pointless. The product
works well and should be available from a LFS if not you can probably
arrange for him to get some.

You will not need to treat the eggs unless they are poor quality.
From experiance all you need do it put the eggs in a shallow tray and
do water changes on them each night. To minimise the risk of
infection and epidemic make sure none of the eggs are clumped
together and are spread out in the container.

Good luck

Tyrone Genade
tgenade at sun_ac.za
http://www.tyronegenade.0catch.com

*************************************************************
P450 Lab, Biochemistry Department
University of Stellenbosch, 7602, South Africa
Ph: +27-021-808-5876, fax: +27-021-808-5863
**********************************************************

"Seek your happiness in the Lord."
                  Psalms 37:4
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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:34:27 -0500
From: "William Vannerson" <William_Vannerson at ama-assn_org>
Subject: Re: Spell checker

Okay, I whipped up a page and uploaded it to the ChiKA web site.  I didn't proof it so please let me know if you see any typos, errors or mistakes.  Here's the link:

http://www.aka.org/aka/clubs/clubpages/ChiKA/library/Spellchk/spellchk.htm

Also, I haven't used the dictionary too much.  So I'd be interested if there are mistakes and/or problems with it as well.

Thanks

Bill Vannerson
McHenry, IL
http://vannerson.home.att.net/


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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:51:43 -0700
From: "Stoecker,Michael,FRANKLIN PARK,NC&C" <michael.stoecker at us_nestle.com>
Subject: RE: Spell checker

Wright,
Your wrote:   "I should think you would want them included. Just because an
original
describer cannot spell, does not mean that his nomenclature has not been
accepted as the correct name for that species. In that situation, we are
obligated to propagate the spelling mistake in the interest of
scientific continuity/traceability, aren't we?
Please correct me here, if I'm wrong about this."


I think the situation Lee is describing is one in which you have now told
your spell checker that the way to spell neighbor is now "nieghbor".  If so,
what implication does that have for all your other correspondence?
Yell at me if I am a few cards shy of a full deck, here.
mike
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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:11:00 -0700
From: "David Lains" <david at zfin_org>
Subject: RE: Acriflavin and egg hardening.

Acriflavine causes mutations in zebrafish, has anyone noticed anything with
killies?

Best Fishes
David

><{{{>-----Original Message-----
><{{{>From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
><{{{>Behalf Of Allen Boatman
><{{{>Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:41 AM
><{{{>To: killietalk at aka_org
><{{{>Subject: RE: Acriflavine and egg hardening.
><{{{>
><{{{>
><{{{>I would say that the dye thing is bunk.  But to make sure,
><{{{>let me make a
><{{{>suggestion.  There was a guy in the killie hobby who made many, many
><{{{>contributions in the past.  His name was Ed Werner (sp?)  His wife is
><{{{>still a member of the AKA and this list, and she maintains most of the
><{{{>fish he was involved in, (which is a true testament of
><{{{>love!!)  Ed had the
><{{{>recipe for an egg hatching solution that will last you a
><{{{>while (a gallon
><{{{>at a time.)  Most Killies' (hi RJ) eggs do fine in this mixture, but
><{{{>Flagfish and the like have problems when their eggs come into
><{{{>contact with
><{{{>methlyne blue, malachite green, or acriflavin.  I used the
><{{{>mixture that Ed
><{{{>proposed for my first two years of killie production, and let
><{{{>me tell you,
><{{{>it did wonders.  The recipe is in the book that Ruth sells
><{{{>for 10 dollars
><{{{>(success with killifish?)  Great book and worth the money for
><{{{>the extra
><{{{>info you can get from it.  We miss Ed, but some of his best
><{{{>insights are
><{{{>kept alive in his book!!  I don't know Ruth's email addy off
><{{{>the top of my
><{{{>head but if you post here trying to contact her, either she,
><{{{>or someone
><{{{>else, will get back with you in good time.  Also, to obtain
><{{{>the chemicals
><{{{>you desire, I would suggest www.4fishstuff.com .  A great
><{{{>organization.
><{{{>
><{{{>All the best and HTH,
><{{{>Boat
><{{{>
><{{{>---------------
><{{{>See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
><{{{>Join the AKA at http://www.aka.org/AKA/Applic.htm
><{{{>

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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:17:54 -0600
From: Edd.Kray at rf_doe.gov
Subject: Re: Rotifer cultures?

John asked about sources for clean rotifer cultures.......

I wonder what the importance of a "clean culture: is?  Although I have used
clean cultures of rotifer (raised by a friend) to get Epi fry through the
first week,  I do observe that fry growing up in my established, natural
tanks grow like the proverbial weeds due to the microbes present and that
includes the whole spectrum from protozoans to multicellular orgs' like
rotifers. Peat-based mulm from my tank bottoms is a rich culture of mixed
microorganisms that makes a great food source for newly hatched's.

Raising "pure" rotifer cultures is possible but time consuming.(I emphasize
the word "pure" becuase, obviously there must be some food source like
paramecium in there for the rotifers to eat....so actually its a
controlled-mixed rather than a really pure culture). I guess a "pure
culture" can give you quantity when you need that, but you will have to
supply a disproportionate amount of work to get that.

Carolina Biological can sell you pure starter cultures. Check their
website.

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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:41:35 -0700
From: Jeremy Adams <frogfood at mac_com>
Subject: Re: Spell checker

On 7/23/02 9:34 AM, "William Vannerson" <William_Vannerson at ama-assn_org>
wrote:

> Okay, I whipped up a page and uploaded it to the ChiKA web site.  I didn't
> proof it so please let me know if you see any typos, errors or mistakes.
> Here's the link:

Hey Bill, when I click on the links (all 3 of them), it just opens them up
in a browser page instead of down loading them. This happens in both
Netscape 4.7 and Internet Explorer. Am I doing something wrong?

Also, does it matter that the Genus names are not capitalized? In one of the
word programs I use, it stores a lower case and an uppercase word as 2
different words. Not sure if MS word does that.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~My Life Story~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeremy Adams - St. Helens, Oregon  USA
Killifish-Frogs-Toads-Aquatic Plants-Fish Ponds
Bombina orientalis web page:
<http://homepage.mac.com/frogfood/bombina/bombina.html>
Loyal Macintosh user since 1988
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:53:13 -0500
From: "William Vannerson" <William_Vannerson at ama-assn_org>
Subject: Re: Spell checker

Jeremy wrote

Bill Vannerson
McHenry, IL
http://vannerson.home.att.net/:
>>> ...   it just opens them up in a browser page instead of down loading them.<<<

Use the right mouse button instead.  A pop up menu will appear.  Select Save Target As and save it to your disk.  The text file works fine, but IE doesn't recognize the ".dic" extention.  So it defaults to an ".htm" extension.  Be sure to overide that "undocumented feature."

>>>Also, does it matter that the Genus names are not capitalized? In one of the word programs I use, it stores a lower case and an uppercase word as 2 different words. Not sure if MS word does that.<<<

I believe so.  I typed in "aphyosemion" and Word underlined it as being misspelling.  I right clicked on the entry and the pop lists "Aphyosemion" as the replacement.  Was there as pecific genus that's not proper case?

Also, I noticed that the files have numerous duplicate entries, these can be deleted leaving only one.  Again, I haven't really used them much so there's likely to be some other errors.


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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:57:30 -0700
From: Wright Huntley <jwwiii at pacbell_net>
Subject: Re: Fungus on eggs

Tyrone Genade wrote:
> On 23 Jul 2002, at 1:57, Chris Browning wrote:
>
>
>> Well, I went on Yahoo and searched for "Tetra General Tonic" and
>> EVERYTHING that came up was in German or Swedish or something.
>
>
> Try http://www.tetra-fish.com but it is quite pointless. The product
> works well and should be available from a LFS if not you can probably
> arrange for him to get some.

I have seen your references to it, Tyrone, but I do not recall ever
seeing it in a US LFS. [I could easily be wrong.]

It may contain some banned ingredient that is into mind bending or
causing abortions. Our nanny state does not trust citizens to use
rational judgement on such matters, so buying simple stuff gets really
complicated, sometimes.

Quinine, USP (drugstore) quality KMNO4, and a host of other useful
things have been denied us in recent years. Clean ethanol requires a
trip out of the country and smuggling if we want to avoid the
record-keeping and tax problems.

>
> You will not need to treat the eggs unless they are poor quality.
>>From experiance all you need do it put the eggs in a shallow tray and
> do water changes on them each night. To minimise the risk of
> infection and epidemic make sure none of the eggs are clumped
> together and are spread out in the container.

If you have no airstone or other circulation-causing device, a rotting
egg can make for a very deadly environment, nearby. I agree that quickly
removing obviously dead eggs is a good idea, but pretty scary for the
newbie.

Are those darker eggs dead? You or I might tell, but it takes a little
experience to be sure.

Anything opaque white, or surrounded by "fuzz" can be pretty certainly
declared dead and hazardous with most killifish.

Developing eggs quickly get some internal "structure" and darker veins
and organs. The eyes become round black dots with a surrounding gold
ring, later. If they get to that stage and don't start to hatch, forcing
may be in order.

Let's reemphasize a wide and shallow container. Wide means eggs can be
kept well apart, and shallow means lots of surface area per unit of
water volume. Those have done more for me to improve hatches than any
dyes or snake-oil remedy. Adding plants is also a big plus factor, but
it can be tough for the new person to get that Java moss starter if none
was sent in the same box as the eggs. [Don't send in the same bag,
unless it's a breather bag, as plants use oxygen in the dark, giving it
back only when lighted and photosynthesizing.]

Wright

- --
Wright Huntley -- 209 521-0557 -- 731 Loletta Ave, Modesto CA 95351

"The right of self-government does not comprehend the government of others."
                                 -- Thos. Jefferson --

That's what Independence Day is all about, isn't it? <www.self-gov.org>


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:12:39 +0200
From: "Erik Pfingstner" <erikpfingstner at freenet_de>
Subject: AW: Rotifer cultures?

Hi,

I have a stable rotifer culture which is feeding on algae. Under microscope,
you will see very little bacteria and I only once saw a paracemium. It seems
the rotifers feed on both bacteria and algae. I only feed algae and they
keep make sure bacteria and ciliates wont multiply too much.

Erik


> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]Im
> Auftrag von Edd.Kray at rf_doe.gov
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 23. Juli 2002 19:18
> An: killietalk at aka_org
> Betreff: Re: Rotifer cultures?
>
>
>
>
> John asked about sources for clean rotifer cultures.......
>
> I wonder what the importance of a "clean culture: is?  Although I
> have used
> clean cultures of rotifer (raised by a friend) to get Epi fry through the
> first week,  I do observe that fry growing up in my established, natural
> tanks grow like the proverbial weeds due to the microbes present and that
> includes the whole spectrum from protozoans to multicellular orgs' like
> rotifers. Peat-based mulm from my tank bottoms is a rich culture of mixed
> microorganisms that makes a great food source for newly hatched's.
>
> Raising "pure" rotifer cultures is possible but time consuming.(I
> emphasize
> the word "pure" becuase, obviously there must be some food source like
> paramecium in there for the rotifers to eat....so actually its a
> controlled-mixed rather than a really pure culture). I guess a "pure
> culture" can give you quantity when you need that, but you will have to
> supply a disproportionate amount of work to get that.
>
> Carolina Biological can sell you pure starter cultures. Check their
> website.
>
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