RE: Muriatic Acid and pH

["Tranquility Base" <TranquilityBase at NetZero_Net>]

Hi Wright,

Usually I find myself in agreement with you. And to a large degree I concur
that the effects of pH are subtle. I have traced some sex ratios and
infertility issues to pH issues. I had dead soft pH 7.3 water coming out of
my tap and my fish did fine. Great sex ratios with Fp, Aphy's Nothos and
even Rivs. The softness caused unwanted pH crashes....true. When the water
company switched me to well water from surface water and or changed their
buffering mix, they cranked the pH to 8.4. Although the water still reads
moderately soft I was happy with the 7.3 pH and as I do not know if and or
when the soft 7.3 water is coming back I made the questionable decision to
maintain the pH at 7.3.

This is a case of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. If we were to take a
survey, I would say that we would wind up with a split decision as to
whether pH matters. To some degree it might even depend on species. I will
only make one observation, that when the water company switched my water I
started experiencing some mysterious deaths among some of the more sensitive
species.

I might add that the Muriatic Acid did not seem to change the hardness of
the water, it just dropped the pH. And as I mentioned the fish look great
and are spawning well.

For people with large fish rooms that feel the need to adjust lots of water
Muriatic Acid works a treat and its dirt cheap. As to the risks...no guts -
no glory.

Peace,


~RJ~

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf Of Wright Huntley
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 10:56 AM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: Re: Muriatic Acid and pH




Tranquility Base wrote:

> I raised this topic some time back and as I have now done a few weeks of
> tests on the subject I figured I would share my results with the list.
>
> The objective of the experiment was to reduce the pH from 8.4 to 7.3 or
> there abouts.  It takes about 170 drops or 3 squirts from a 2.5 ml
> scientific eyedropper (about 6 ml) to achieve 7.0 to 7.3. in a 20 gal long
> tank. The hardness is not significantly affected the specific gravity of
the
> water is increased to about 1.005. Not all bad. The fish look great and
> spawn readily in the treated water. No significant precipitate was
observed.
>
> Now for the down side....  After treatment the pH crashes down to 6.0 or
> lower and takes AT LEAST a day to come back up to the desired 7.0 - 7.3.
And
> it takes significantly less acid to drop the pH from 7.0 to 6.0. A little
> overdose causes a large change. The pH bounce is much more severe and
slower
> than what you may expect.


No surprise there. You have destroyed the buffering (KH) so pH is
inevitably going to become unstable and very squirrely.

What I can't figure is why in the world you would want to do that?

It has been known for years that the fish are not pH sensitive (see the
Scheel _Atlas..._ as an ancient example). Many plants *need* the
carbonates and bicarbonates that you are destroying and driving off as
CO2 to the atmosphere.

The only down side to a pH of 8.3 would be if you have high ammonium
from neglected water changes and/or no plants. Too much might be
converted to ammonia and that *is* nasty on the fish.

You would be converting a potentially healthy tank to an unstable and
potentially lethal one any time you destroy the buffering with a strong
acid.

If your water supplier is adding some stronger oxides or hydroxides to
prevent lead poisoning, you can add back, to your low KH results, a
little sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to get a stable 7.6 pH or so.
Shoot for a measured KH of at least 4, tho, or you will be in lots of
instability problems as the buffering gets used up.


> The acid works a treat in a mixing tank but I would strongly recommend
that
> it not be used in a tank with fish. The nature of the initial pH crash is
> way too severe to be healthy for anything in a living tank.


Again, the pH is not the problem. Nitrite becomes lethal at too-low pH,
and can zap your fish quickly, if present. I have routinely bred fish at
pH of 4 and below, when the eggs or babies were particularly sensitive
to bacterial infection. [Many bacteria give up in that much acidity.]


>
> Muriatic acid 34% costs about $2.50 per gallon. The cost, therefore is
> insignificant.
>


IMHO, the results of using strong acids in tanks still does not justify
such low costs. One should simply not use them when there are more
controlled ways to get the desired results (no ammonium or nitrites).

pH kits have a *huge* markup, and are easy for most folks to use. The
aquarium literature is full of pH mythology, as the local fish stores
love to sell some "magic." Ammonium/ammonia and nitrite toxicity, and
tds (osmotic) shock account for virtually all the pH myths. I routinely
have subjected my killies to pH shifts of two or more points (Scheel
reports 3+ points) with no signs of any distress.

Without very strong reason, I don't try to change any pH between about 4
and 10. If the fish don't care what the pH is, why should I keep them in
a soup of miscellaneous chemicals?

YMMV and free advice is worth every penny, but that's my take on it.

Wright


--
Wright Huntley -- 209 521-0557 -- 731 Loletta Ave, Modesto CA 95351

"If you aid and abet the enemy, whether you're a citizen or not,
you're not entitled to the right of due process,"
             -- Sen. Charles E. Schumer,
New York Democrat, member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

So much for the (late) constitution he swore to uphold!


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