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Re: "Algone" - I think I get it (Algone's response)

To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: Re: "Algone" - I think I get it (Algone's response)
From: Bill Moreno <morenob at munnecke_com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 10:54:35 -0800
In-Reply-To: <3C371B5F.9B0EB8FC at bellsouth_net>
References: <F96bfAd5HmWjlB9FjIK00012d36 at hotmail_com>
Barley in water gardens have natural algae inhibitors found in many land 
plants but more concentrated in plants such as Barley.  I can send you the 
reference if you're interested in the article.
                                                               Bill
At 10:27 AM 1/5/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Sounds a lot like Barley straw. Water gardeners use this to control algae in
>ponds. It
>actually rots in the water and depletes the algae of the nutrients that it 
>feeds
>on.
>
>Jason Owens wrote:
>
> > RJ,
> >
> > Algone sent me the following email today:
> >
> > Dear Jason,
> >
> > thank you for your email, I am glad to confirm your theory.
> > The content of the pouches are in fact a mixture of plant fibers that act,
> > as you have described it, like a plant in a pouch.
> > The tannins that you describe is a visible sign of overdose, which is
> > reached at about 1 pouch per 2 Gallons of water. The yellowish 
> discoloration
> > will not be harmful to the fish and can quickly be removed by activated
> > carbon.
> >
> > The reduction of excess nutrients, nutrients the tank is unable to convert
> > on its own, results in lack of food for the algae. Algae growth can
> > therefore be controlled. Nevertheless, Algone will not nuke the tank of
> > algae. Algae do play an important role in the aquatic system by providing
> > enzymes for a balanced environment as well as a supplemental nutrient 
> source
> > for many species.
> > The goal of every hobbyist should be to control the growth not to 
> completely
> > eliminate it as many if not all chemicals do. While chemicals will get rid
> > of algae by destroying their photosynthesis cells (smiazine) the nutrients
> > are still in the water ready for the new spores to feed of.
> >
> > Since you have created the wording of "plant in the pouch" I would like to
> > add that Algone will not deprive the plants or the aquarium of trace
> > elements needed, nor will Algone deprive the plants of the much needed
> > nitrogen compounds.
> > Plants are a higher form of living than algae. Single celled algae are the
> > lowest form followed by multi celled algae (micro and macro algae, micro
> > being most of the nuisance algae in the hobby). Next up would be the non
> > bloomers and the bloomers (as in plants).
> > This works like a food chain from top to bottom. Controlling the nutrients
> > will result in a competition of the leftovers. Plants will outcompete the
> > algae for nutrients, thus posing little risk to the well being of the
> > plants.
> > Furthermore, plants have the ability to store nitrogen within their root
> > system through which they take on the nitrogen compounds more easily than
> > through the leaves.
> > There is of course a minimal risk of nitrate/ nitrogen depletion if the
> > readings go down to 0 ppm on a long term basis. In this case Algone can be
> > removed and replaced at a later time. But a 0 reading does not generally
> > indicate a nitrate/ nitrogen depletion.
> > Minimal risk is because of the continuous formation of nitrate/ nitrogen in
> > the substrate. The plants will be the first ones to have access to the
> > nutrients before they are released into the water column. Algone will
> > "filter" the water, therefore removing the excess nutrients after the 
> plants
> > got hold of their nitrate/ nitrogen demands.
> >
> > I hope I could provide you with the answers to your questions. Please feel
> > free to contact us anytime if you have follow up questions or comments.
> >
> > Have a good weekend,
> >
> > Thilo
> >
> > Thilo M. Boensch
> > Algone Corporation
> > http://www.algone.com
> >
> > Phone:
> > 1-877-425-4663 (US & Canada)
> > + 724-453-1833 (International)
> >
> > Fax:
> > + 724-453-0454
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Customer Service - Algone Corporation <info at algone_com>
> > To: Thilo Boensch <tboensch at algone_com>
> > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:35 AM
> > Subject: FW: Question
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Jason Owens [mailto:jasonvowens at hotmail_com]
> > >Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 9:55 AM
> > >To: info at algone_com
> > >Subject: Question
> > >
> > >
> > >Dear Algone,
> > >
> > >I will buy your product if and only if you can answer the following
> > >question: what is in your pouches?  I'm not interested in the "process"
> > that
> > >ensues after placing a pounch in one's filter...I need to know what's in
> > >there in order for me to risk placing such an additive in my tank.
> > >
> > >If, in response to this email, you simply state that Algone is "all
> > natural"
> > >and won't hurt my tank, fish, plants, or filter, I will NOT buy it.  Such
> > an
> > >answer is not sufficient to put my tank at risk.  And please do not say
> > it's
> > >"secret."  I'm not asking for the scietific name of the contents...just a
> > >general explanation...such as whether the contents of an Algone pouch is,
> > in
> > >fact, plant matter.
> > >
> > >Reading between the lines of your marketing claims, I'm guessing it's some
> > >kind of plant matter inside the Algone pouch.  It's a well known fact that
> > a
> > >well-planted tank will not suffer from too much algae growth because the
> > >plants "eat" the nitrates in the water that also serve as food for algae.
> > >Without this food the algae cannot grow.
> > >
> > >Is Algone simply a "plant in a pouch"?  If so, I would probably buy it.
> > This
> > >would certainly explain your claims that Algone naturally reduces nitrates
> > >and increases oxygen...and would also explain why adding multiple pouches
> > >can result in tannins being released in the water.
> > >
> > >But because your website fails to convey what IS in the pouch - explaining
> > >only in general terms the "results" of placing a pounch in a tank - I
> > simply
> > >cannot purchase any Algone.  If you can answer my question, however, I
> > will
> > >certainly consider buying some...and endorcing your product in the
> > multiple
> > >Internet fishkeeping circles I travel in.
> > >
> > >Thank you,
> > >
> > >Jason Owens
> > >Newton, MA
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> > >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> >
> > >From: "Tranquility Base" <TranquilityBase at NetZero_Net>
> > >Reply-To: killietalk at aka_org
> > >To: <killietalk at aka_org>
> > >Subject: RE: "Algone" - I think I get it (FINAL NOTE)
> > >Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:01:49 -0500
> > >
> > >Hi Jason,
> > >
> > >Plant fibers are useless unless they are actually alive as I understand
> > >biology. Plants primarily use photosynthesis to break down ammonia and
> > >nitrite. As they consume the food in the presence of light they grow.
> > >
> > >If their product really were a nitrate hungry plant it would only live in
> > >the lighted area of the tank and it would grow. It would eventually become
> > >noticeable. Sounds a lot like algae doesn't it?  It thought the original
> > >purpose of the product was to get rid of algae.
> > >
> > >The web site lists their product under chemical filtration along with
> > >carbon
> > >and zeolites. This makes me more inclined to think that they are marketing
> > >some form of resin.
> > >
> > >I e-mailed the Algone people and if they reply I will share it with the
> > >list.
> > >
> > >Peace,
> > >
> > >~RJ~
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
> > >Behalf Of Jason Owens
> > >Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:24 AM
> > >To: killietalk at aka_org
> > >Subject: Re: "Algone" - I think I get it (FINAL NOTE)
> > >
> > >
> > >Ok, here's my last post on Algone.
> > >
> > >I gave in and finally called them to satisfy my curiousity.  The operator
> > >who answered readily confirmed my theory: Algone pouches contain nothing
> > >more than plant fibers.  These fibers, he explained, are simply extremely
> > >nitrate-hungry plants that sap the nutrients in the water that algae feeds
> > >on.
> > >
> > >So, it's safe for fish.  Technically, it's safe for plants 
> too...though the
> > >nitrate eating action will remove your plant's neutrient source as 
> well.  I
> > >might even recommend Algone to people who don't have live plants in their
> > >tank based on the conversation I had...
> > >
> > >Anyway, that's it.  I'm all done investigating Algone.  Hope I haven't
> > >bored
> > >everyone too much!
> > >
> > >-- jason
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Jason Owens" <jasonvowens at hotmail_com>
> > > >Reply-To: killietalk at aka_org
> > > >To: killietalk at aka_org
> > > >Subject: "Algone" - I think I get it
> > > >Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:41:11 -0500
> > > >
> > > >Algone does not explain what it puts in its little pouches, so this 
> is an
> > > >educated guess...but, reading between the lines of their claims (that
> > > >Algone
> > > >"naturally" decreases Nitrate and increases oxygen without introducing
> > >ANY
> > > >chemicals to your tank), I think I've figured out how Algone works.  If
> > > >anyone chooses to use it is another story...
> > > >
> > > >HERE WE GO:
> > > >
> > > >As you know, live plants can eliminate algae.  This happens because
> > >plants
> > > >feed off the same nitrates that algae does...so when the plants use up
> > >all
> > > >the nitrate in the tank, there's no nutrients left for the algae to feed
> > > >on...stopping its grown.  Simple stuff, really.
> > > >
> > > >Algone - although it doesn't explicitly explain this on its supposedly
> > > >informative website - almost surely works this way: it's a plant in a
> > > >pouch.
> > > >  In essense, the pouch is filled with some kind of plant matter that
> > > >itself
> > > >"eats" the nitrates in the water.  In the process, it probably helps
> > >clean
> > > >some of the ammonia and nitrites from the water, add oxygen, etc...much
> > >the
> > > >way plants do in a well planted tank.  In short, adding an Algone pouch
> > >to
> > > >your filter is like adding an extremely nitrate-hungry plant to your
> > >tank.
> > > >Not such a bad thing, right?
> > > >
> > > >My problem with Algone is that, instead of simply explaining this 
> natural
> > > >and seemingly attractive process, it cloaks its product in
> > > >pseudo-scientific
> > > >mumbo-jumbo to bill itself as a "miracle cure."  Most likely, if Algone
> > > >works in the way I describe the product IS in fact a safe, maybe even
> > > >effective additive.  Plants are good for a tank, so adding Algone may be
> > > >too.  You just wish they were more upfront.
> > > >
> > > >In the end, I refuse to buy such a product because they're not honest
> > >about
> > > >things.  If they came out and SAID what's in the pouch, I might have
> > > >interest.  Regardless, I can say this about Algone: the single biggest
> > > >claim
> > > >they make over and over and over, is that it's natural and it won't hurt
> > > >you
> > > >fish or plants even at extraorinarily high levels.  So...if you have a
> > > >really bad algae problem and you're desperate, it could be worth a try.
> > > >I'm
> > > >quite sure it's no miracle cure, but if it works in the way I 
> suggest, it
> > > >might just help a bit.
> > > >
> > > >Otherwise, I'd wait until they get honest.
> > > >
> > > >-- JO
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>From: "Tranquility Base" <TranquilityBase at NetZero_Net>
> > > >>Reply-To: killietalk at aka_org
> > > >>To: <killietalk at aka_org>
> > > >>Subject: RE: Is "Algone" a scam?
> > > >>Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 02:06:54 -0500
> > > >>
> > > >>Hi Jason:
> > > >>
> > > >>I have never tried the product. Everyone is looking to market 
> something.
> > > >>Some work perfectly others do not work at all. Most are somewhere in
> > > >>between. And a few will even kill your fish.
> > > >>
> > > >>I would call the manufacturer and ask them how their product works. How
> > > >>does
> > > >>it deal with the nitrates which the algae would usually take up. How
> > >does
> > > >>it
> > > >>affect pH and hardness. Is it safe for other plants and if so which
> > >ones?
> > > >>What about the fish or eggs? I have made many such calls over the years
> > > >>and
> > > >>I have been amazed how honest many manufacturers are. I was once 
> told by
> > >a
> > > >>manufacturer that their product was not for "fish breeders" another 
> told
> > > >>me
> > > >>that their product would not work in tanks with a high population
> > >density.
> > > >>Others have given me similar useful information regarding their 
> product.
> > > >>Its easier to exaggerate in print and harder for them to lie on the
> > >phone
> > > >>when you ask direct questions.
> > > >>
> > > >>And finally, if they answer your questions satisfactorily, you have to
> > >try
> > > >>it. Then let the rest of us know how it works.
> > > >>
> > > >>It is always tempting to say that something new most likely will not
> > >work.
> > > >>History proves this to be true. But sometimes you have to try new
> > >products
> > > >>because every once in a while something new which works a treat comes
> > >out.
> > > >>
> > > >>Peace,
> > > >>
> > > >>~RJ~
> > > >>
> > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
> > > >>Behalf Of Jason Owens
> > > >>Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:00 PM
> > > >>To: killietalk at aka_org
> > > >>Subject: Is "Algone" a scam?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Does anyone have experience with a product called Algone?  Their 
> website
> > > >>(www.algone.com) purports that it's a 100% safe and natural way to
> > >control
> > > >>and eliminate algae in both fresh and marine fish tanks.
> > > >>
> > > >>If you visit the site, you'll see that Algone's site is peppered with
> > > >>testimonials (Chris T. from Texas says it's great, Sally P. from New
> > >York
> > > >>says it's a miracle) and "scientific" documentation, yet Internet
> > >searches
> > > >>on Google, Yahoo, and Northernlight.com have yielded almost nothing on
> > > >>this
> > > >>product or its effectiveness.
> > > >>
> > > >>Basically...considering the thriving nature of the online fishkeeping
> > > >>community, the widespread problem of algae growth in tanks, and the
> > > >>remarkable claims this company makes...I would think SOMEONE would be
> > > >>talking about this stuff online.  But the only place talking about
> > >Algone
> > > >>is
> > > >>www.algone.com.
> > > >>
> > > >>Personally, I want to believe...but I don't want to be the sucker 
> buying
> > > >>fool's gold.
> > > >>
> > > >>-- jason
> > > >>
> > > >>_________________________________________________________________
> > > >>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> > > >>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
> > > >>
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References:
RE: "Algone" - I think I get it (Algone's response)
From: "Jason Owens" <jasonvowens at hotmail_com>
Re: "Algone" - I think I get it (Algone's response)
From: Bob Woth <bwoth at bellsouth_net>
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