[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
RE: Unbagging fish
How does a dog say he has a sore throat? Easy... he says he feels
"Rrrrufff!"
Sorry.
Dave Wood
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On Behalf Of
Robert J. Goldstein
Sent: 23 August 2001 18:02
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: Re: Unbagging fish
I took the definition of symptom (as used in medicine) from the 2,129 page
Webster's New Twentienth Century Dicionary of the English Language
Unabridged, second edition, dated 1967, which trumps your puny little
Stedman's. That Stedman kid probably plays video games.
Seriously, I rely on the oldest unabridged Webster's I have, which I think
is authoritative for English. I too sometimes use medical and veterinary
terms (I'll accept necropsy vs autopsy although in both cases the patient
doesn't know what's going on) where they provide enhanced specificity of
meaning. However, in this case the word SYMPTOM is an old English (and
medical) word that has been only recently adopted for a narrower use by the
veterinary and medical professions (how does a dog say he's got a sore
throat?), although I fail to see why the rest of us should adhere to that
narrower use or what benefits such narrowing provides.
As to sign vs symptom or objective vs. subjective, I would submit that
everything you or I conclude is objective until someone else points out the
ambiguities and proves to us that it's really subjective, which we'd see
were we only to look more closely.
It's an important distinction for grading a paper, but not for
communications among so diverse a group as all of us and Tyrone. (Sorry -
couldn't resist.)
.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry J. Cooper <bjc3 at cornell_edu>
To: <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Unbagging fish
> This is just for fun, so I hope others will forgive the off-topic debate.
>
> In medicine, and I would argure that a discussion of manifestations shown
by diseased fish is medicine, symptom should only be used for things that
the patient feels and describes. To quote Stedman's Medical Dictionary,
under "sign" (the correct word to use when describing what you can see,
feel, smell, etc. in a diseased animal):
>
> sign: Any abnormality indicative of disease, discoverable on examination
of the patient; an objective symptom of disease, in contrast to a symptom,
which is a subjective s. of disease.
>
> Having said that, I recognize the ludicrous inconsistency in that
definition. How can you have an objective symptom of disease when a symptom
is subjective.
>
> The word symptom is very commonly misused in medicine and veterinary
medicine, the latter to my chagrin, and in every day speech. We can agree to
disagree, but one should not use the word symptom when describing a
manifestation of disease in an animal.
>
> Trust me, I'm a doctor (of veterinary medicine - I know you are a doctor
too. We'll have to slug it out at an AKA convention some time).
>
> Barry
>
> >I generally agree with you Barry, but not entirely. I fully agree with
you
> >about quarantine, although I didn't address that in this past missive. I
too
> >try to quarantine new fish for at least two to four weeks, but sometimes
I
> >can't do it. I also did not consider the use of breathing bags which you
> >cannot float because they have no air and because surrounding the bags
with
> >water is a good way to kill your fish. And in addition to the water
adhering
> >to the fish, we also have the problem of gut contents of the fish,
whether
> >or not those contents contain microbes pathogenic for the fish carrying
it
> >or for other kinds of fishes. Obviously, changing portions of the water
at a
> >time do not address pathogens sufficiently, but it does address shocking
the
> >fish with different quality of water. BTW, we sometimes make too much of
> >qualitative differences. For example, public aquariums routinely use a
> >marine dip for new freshwater fishes and vice versa. I do disagree with
you
> >about my use of the term symptoms. You may use it that way in your vet
> >school teaching, but that's not what it means. It means any indicator or
> >condition of a disease that serves as an aid in diagnosis. But since you
are
> >a young whipper-snapper, I forgive you.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Barry J. Cooper <bjc3 at cornell_edu>
> >To: <killietalk at aka_org>
> >Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 10:58 AM
> >Subject: Re: Unbagging fish
> >
> >
> >> Bob,
> >>
> >> It'a a rare occasion on which I would argue with you, but I will on
this
> >one.
> >>
> >> First, in the incident I described previously I did follow a procedure
> >similar to the one you describe, and I thought I was being careful, but I
> >still had fish injured by osmotic shock. I don't, by the way, think that
> >drip acclimitization needs to be done over 24 hours, but I would
recommend a
> >few hours when going from hard to soft water.
> >>
> >> Second, the warning about transmission of disease is fully appropriate,
> >but I think adding some of the shipping water is the least of the
problems.
> >If the fish are carrying a pathogen, you will add it to your tank with
the
> >fish rather than with the water. It is possible, but unlikely, that the
> >water contains a pathogen that has not infected the fish, whether or not
> >they show signs. At any rate, they still have water on their skin. The
> >appropriate way to avoid introduction of disease to an established tank
is
> >to put the new fish in a quarantine tank for at least a couple of weeks
and
> >to avoid any procedure that might contaminate existing tanks with
organisms
> >from the new fish (use of nets, sipon tubes, hands, etc.). I realize that
> >the average person with one tank in the living room at home will probably
> >not follow that procedure, but those of use with fishrooms containing
many
> >tanks, often with fish that we regard as valuable, should always do so.
This
> >is particularly import!
> > > ant at the present because of the "Glugea problem" which is still
present
> >in the killie hobby.
> >>
> >> I will correct what is a pet point of semantics when I am teaching
> >veterinary students. Only humans can have symptoms, which is what you
> >describe that your are feeling when you are ill. Animals have clinical
> >signs, but cannot describe what they are feeling, so the word symptoms
> >should not be used in that context. I'll apologize ahead of time for that
> >little lecture, but I couldn't help myself.
> >>
> >> Incidentally, I will agree with you that I have not noticed that men
are
> >more effeminate and have lower sperm counts. Of course, I rarely ask my
male
> >friends about their sperm count, and I must admit I don't even know my
own.
> >As long as I am having fun with it, I don't worry about the count.
Tyrone,
> >you come out with the most bizarre things sometimes. Sorry, couldn't help
> >myself again.
> >>
> >> Barry
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Here is an excerpt from my upcoming angelfish book (the very last),
based
> >on discussions and publications from Dr. Jack Gratzek an expert who has
> >worked for the pet industry and on many tropical fish diseases. Bottom
line
> >is that you should not introduce foreign water into your system, but
discard
> >the incoming shipping water, gradually adding your own replacement water
to
> >the bag. This needn't take more than 30 minutes whether one incoming bag
or
> >many. I recently had an excellent example of what happens when you mix
> >external fish with your own. A Thai fellow was here collecting natives.
We
> >brought them back and they looked in excellent health. Out of room, we
put
> >three extremely healthy looking minnows into a 40 with a large batch of
> >bettas. Within two days almost all the bettas were dead and one of the
three
> >minnows was dead, with all fish showing no obvious symptoms of disease
> >(which apparently did all its damage internally). So here's the excerpt -
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Unbagging
> >> >
> >> > You've picked out six plain angels and taken them home. Don't
> >> >simply dump them into your tank. Angelfish are sensitive to bright
> >> >lights and temperature changes. Do as the dealers do. Turn off the
> >> >room (and tank) lights, and float the plastic bag of angelfish in
> >> >the aquarium for a half hour. During this time the temperature of
> >> >the water in the plastic bag will change to the temperature of the
> >> >water in your tank.
> >> >
> >> > Now open the bag, spill off some bag water into a bucket, and
> >> >replace it with tank water. It's important for disease prevention
> >> >to introduce the least amount of pet shop water with the new fish.
> >> >Let the bag float another five minutes, and then again discard some
> >> >water from the bag and replace it with more tank water. Repeat this
> >> >discard and replace exercise 4 or 5 times. By this time any
> >> >differences in water quality (hardness, pH, other chemical
> >> >characteristics) have disappeared, and the fish have been gradually
> >> >adapted to your tank water rather than exposed to a sudden change.
> >> >
> >> > Should you now dump the remaining water with the fish into the
> >> >tank? It's a better idea to net the fish from the bag so that no
> >> >pet shop water at all gets into your tank. Not everyone is this
> >> >careful but, like washing your hands after going to the bathroom,
> >> >it's good hygiene that might prevent the transmission of a
> >> >contagious disease.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The lights should be left off and the fish not fed until the
> >> >following day. That allows them to learn their new environment in
> >> >dim light (which is less stressful) and give their stomachs a
> >> >chance to settle down. That first night they will go to sleep a bit
> >> >hungry. The next day they will wake up gently as dawn lights the
> >> >room of their new tank, and they will have a healthy appetite. The
> >> >time to put the tank light on is when the fish are wide awake and
> >> >will not be frightened by sudden bright illumination.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Robert J. Goldstein, Ph.D.
> >> >Robert J. Goldstein & Associates, Inc.
> >> >8480 Garvey Drive
> >> >Raleigh, NC 27616
> >> >tel (919) 872-1174
> >> >tel (800) 407-0889
> > > >fax (919) 872-9214
> >> ><mailto:rgoldstein at rjgaCarolina_com>rgoldstein at rjgaCarolina_com
> >> >URL <http://www.rjgaCarolina.com>www.rjgaCarolina.com
> >> >
> >> >Attachment converted: Cooper 8500:Robert J. Goldstein, Ph.D..vc 2
> >(TEXT/ttxt) (00083217)
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Barry J. Cooper
> >> Department of Biomedical Sciences Home address:
> >> College of Veterinary Medicine 27505 Riggs Hill Rd.
> >> Cornell University Sweet Home, OR 97386
> >> (607)253-4273 (541)367-2568
> >> ---------------
> >> See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
> >
> >---------------
> >See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
>
>
> --
> Barry J. Cooper
> Department of Biomedical Sciences Home address:
> College of Veterinary Medicine 27505 Riggs Hill Rd.
> Cornell University Sweet Home, OR 97386
> (607)253-4273 (541)367-2568
> ---------------
> See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
---------------
See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
---------------
See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
References: