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RE: Culls..Comment - Wild v. Designer Fish
Hi Dave,
If an animal rights activist ever asks about "deformed" fish. You can ask
them if they would also kill off deformed people. By keeping them and their
offspring alive in aquariums, we are giving then a chance they would not
have in nature. ;^)
Best regards,
~RJ~
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf Of David Wood
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 1:08 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: RE: Culls..Comment - Wild v. Designer Fish
I must plead guilty ....I have bred both guppies and fighting fish for show
purposes.
My comments were mainly to do with wild-type populations, but also to
illustrate the extremes to which commercial breeders will go. I suppose that
some people like the "parrot" cichlid, and I have seen very effective
set-ups using only albino fish. Having sold fancy goldfish I can't moan too
much although I dislike some types.
My main concern , however, is that often new colours/body shapes/fin
extensions bring other problems such as swim-bladder faults etc., With
animal rights activists looking for "soft targets" we as a serious hobby
should do our best not to provide ammunition by deliberately producing
"deformed" animals.
Dave Wood
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On Behalf
Of -RJ-
Sent: 04 August 2001 10:54
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: RE: Culls..Comment - Wild v. Designer Fish
Hi Dave,
Not all of us are shooting for an exact representation of wild fish in our
fish tanks. I for one think a yellow on black STR might be interesting if it
bred true. I think that there is a place for blushing angels, although they
are not among my favorites. I had an amazing marble angel fish which had a
gold head iridescent blue stripes in the fins "diamond" white scales and jet
black ones, It also was born without those nasty stringy pelvic fins. It got
very large and reasonably old but I never was able to find a suitable mate
for it that lived. I found two similar fish but they were very small and did
not make it. Anyone who ever saw this fish was flat out astounded. It
actually looked like a psychedelic mono.
I recently saw one of the most astonishing killie strains which I have ever
seen. It has not been widely distributed in the hobby and it did not
resemble any wild fish but it was impressive never the less. And it was the
result of a great deal of care and years of selective breeding. The breeder
still keeps the original strain going too and that over 25 years.
I believe that wild strains should be preserved, without reservation. But as
we are actually setting up artificial environments I for one see no problem
with designer fish. As a hobby have we not learned to accept the red or
chocolate austraile. Or the albino GAR. There is even an "electric" blue
eggersi which brought good money at the AKA convention. I even saw
red/orange austrailes getting snapped up at the AKA convention fish sale
room faster than wild strains.
Culling runts may be good housekeeping if you are keeping a wild strain in
its natural state. And with that theory I have no particular problem. But I
do not agree that designer killies are second class citizens just because
they do not exist in the wild.
Lets face it, just about every one of us has had a goldfish or at least fed
one to something else. Most of us have admired at least one fancy guppy,
platy or swordtail. And to tell you the truth, although I loved my wild
discus above most others I had sunshine yellow and pigeon blood discus that
lit up my entire fish tank. If someone had culled the first goldfish there
would be a lot of kids with really bland ugly fish in their bowls. And what
about nearsighted piranhas? Just kidding.
Natural fish certainly have their place. But I think that there is plenty of
room in this hobby for the custom jobs too.
Best regards,
~RJ~
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf Of David Wood
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 3:22 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: RE: Culls..Comment
Although I have had similar experiences with breeding (poor fish producing
good fry,etc.)I have bred a strain (since culled) of A. striatum in which
the colours were yellow on black instead of red on green. I feel that
hobbyists in general are too reluctant to cull.
One problem with culling is choice of victims. Wild fish obviously are
culled by disease or predators or whatever other method which leaves a
breeding population of similar sized fish with similar appearance. In the
hobby we tend to breed the biggest, most colourful fish. Truly effective
culling should remove any fish that vary significantly vary from the norm.
This might save the hobby from such monstrosities as blushing angelfish and
bright red discus etc.
Before I get flamed I KNOW that there are size variations in wild
populations and that in e.g some cichlid populations we find small fish
gate-crashing large pairs which are spawning.
Regards,
Dave Wood
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On Behalf
Of -RJ-
Sent: 01 August 2001 20:07
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: RE: Culls
Hi Dave,
The opinion on culls varies. Some of the best breeders only breed their best
and brightest. Sometimes they produce larger and brighter fish than occur in
the wild. Not a bad idea.
On the other hand I have a beautiful strain of GUE. After losing several
very nice pairs in the learning process. I got a pair breeding and got my
first viable eggs. This was the dullest drabbest pair I had ever seen but as
I was learning I raised the fry. The next generation was OUTSTANDING. The
best I had ever seen. I still get some colorless males roughly every other
generation. I usually do not sell them but I don't even remove them from my
breeding colony. If you ever see my GUE, I guarantee that the nicest among
them are as nice as any anywhere and way more colorful than most. By the
way I have had STR who had broken lines when they were juvenile and the
lines filled in when they got older.
So I for one do not cull very often. Over culling can cost a loss of useful
genes in a strain too.
Best regards,
~RJ~
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf Of David Ramsey
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 3:13 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: Culls
I don't remember the list ever having a discussion on
culls other that bent spines and obvious physical
defects. As far as how the fish looks, what is a cull?
Here is a quick pick of a A striatum Cape Esteria
http://www.djramsey.com/tropfish/strcull.jpg
Considering the lines are somewhat broken, is this a
cull or a keeper?
David Ramsey
=====
David Ramsey
djramsey30045 at yahoo_com
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