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inbreeding and crappy genetics

It has been my experience and has been the experience of others that most
mutations come when the youngsters breed with the parents.  Just my 2 cents
worth.

Allen "Boat" Boatman
Tampa, FL
AKA,TBAS, SKS

-----Original Message-----
From: Owner-KillieTalk at AKA_Org [mailto:Owner-KillieTalk at AKA_Org]
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 3:28 PM
To: Owner-KillieTalk at AKA_Org
Subject: KillieTalk Digest V3 #1386


KillieTalk Digest       Saturday, July 14 2001       Volume 03 : Number 1386



In this issue:

        RE: Long time maintenance was KillieTalk Digest V3 #1383

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Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:03:31 -0400
From: "-RJ-" <TranquilityBase at netzero_net>
Subject: RE: Long time maintenance was KillieTalk Digest V3 #1383

Hi Folks,

I believe that certain species which have very limited ranges and small
populations in nature, they are already as inbred as they will get. Lethal
chromosome combinations have long since weeded themselves out. Over the past
10,000 years or so all of the Nothos in a given pan have interbred many
thousands of times so that their chromosomes should be relatively
homogeneous.  Who knows if we go back a few millennium to the last great
flood when the fish originally wound up in their depression there may only
have been one or a few pairs to start with in the first place. Keeping small
populations of these fish should not present a problem. This seems to be the
findings of long term Notho breeders. Fish from large diverse populations
and from large drainage systems may need the kind of genetic diversity or
gene pool that only a larger population can provide.

There are many examples of long term maintenance of fish from a small gene
pool. As far as I know, all albino GAR and Whitei come from just one pair.
This is true of many albino or designer animals.

IMHO, inbreeding is most harmful if there is a genetic weakness in the
strain to start with.

Best regards,


~RJ~

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf Of Ron @ FAR EAST
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 3:08 AM
To: KillieTalk at aka_org
Subject: Re: Long time maintenance was KillieTalk Digest V3 #1383


Hi all,

Martin Ravn Tversted wrote:
> a generel diskussion about what species people has kept for a long time?
> how long?

Wright replied;
> Let's start with the *Fundulopanchax walkeri* GH 74/2 Kutunze.
> Maybe seven years or more? I forget.

Allen Johnson replied;
> I have had Cynolebias whitei (now Nematolebias whitei) nearly
> continuously since I first acquired them as my first killies purchased
> through the F&EL from Ed Warner back in the winter of 69/70.

Lee replied;
> I have had about the same experience over the same period with
> the same species. I don't remember where I got mine originally
> (maybe from Allen Johnson) and I have occasionally gotten some
> new specimens, described loosely as "red" or as especially large
> stock (entered by Royal Ingersol at the 1997 convention).
> I have not "interbred" these but kept them separate. Probably
> those who believe that inbreeding is deleterious would have done
> otherwise. I have seen no deterioration with time and generations.

I'm curious whether the fishes maintained were 'interbred' with the same
line, from other killi-keepers or inbred from the stock parents/siblings,
throughout the entire maintenance period. Seven years is a long time with
inbreeding (so I thought)... until I read of Allen's original stock from
69/70 !!.

Reason I asked was that a recent batch of Fp. SJO had spinal deformation and
my sole response from Ruth (her personal opinion indicated 'inbreeding').  I
can see that line of reasoning .... the same have been observed with fancy
guppies, bettas and rams.... they're progressively less robust, more
inclined to succumb to diseases and more
deformities.  Even though I kept the deformed SJOs for mosquito control,
they didn't last.... Mother Nature took care of the culling.

Lee's posting doesn't quite tally with my thoughts when he mentioned " not
'interbred'" & not observing "deterioration with time and generations".

I'd like to maintain some species and knowing no degenerative effects from
inbreeding will help.  Could someone shed some light here?

Regards,
Ronnie
from sunny (hot!) Singapore

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