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Re: Alpha Male Breeding Success
Just for the record... Water temp is a constant 70-72 degrees F.
Mop extends from top to bottom. I usually have light 24 hours. I know most
would disagree with that, but it suits my feeding schedule. I have done
this for decades with no problems for bettas, various live-bearers, and
killies. I think I will try the old beta male alone with the girls first.
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "-RJ-" <TranquilityBase at netzero_net>
To: <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: Alpha Male Breeding Success
> Jay,
>
> A few final Ideas, I bought a pair of Celiae Celiae which were spawning
> abundantly for their prior owner. But they would not do so for me. I was
> using a floating mop. When I sank the mop I began to collect lots of eggs.
> Have you tried moving the mop? Also could the water temperature have
changed
> over the past few months with the onset of winter? Also you might
consider
> changing the day-night cycle. If changing males does not work, you could
> also keep both males together if you provide more cover (ie. java moss
> plastic baggs or other partial deviders)in your setup.
>
> Good luck,
>
> -RJ-
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
> Behalf Of Jay-Scott Moylan
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 7:19 PM
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Subject: Re: Alpha Male Breeding Success
>
>
> More interesting remarks! Good stuff.
>
> I use no plants except for Java moss in my fry tanks. No snails.
I
> like bare, more lab-type setups. In the tank (2 1/2 gal) is an acrylic
mop,
> a filter, and the fish. I feed the same foods consistently, and change
the
> water religiously on a weekly basis. None of those are factors in the
> behavior change in my opinion. By the way, these are all young fish. I
> figure they were about 4 months old in June when I got them at the
> Convention.
>
> On another note, I just noticed during a treat feeding of BBS in
my
> community tank that the non-dominant male is, in fact, still alive.
> Apparently he has just been hiding for a couple of months! I am going to
> try and capture him and switch the males and see if spawning resumes.
I'll
> let you all know the result.
>
> Jay
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "-RJ-" <TranquilityBase at netzero_net>
> To: <killietalk at aka_org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:24 AM
> Subject: RE: Alpha Male Breeding Success
>
>
> > Greetings Jay and Friends,
> >
> > Upon further reflection, I am not sure that we are disagreeing. I have
> > proposed that the dominent male killifish gets substancial breeding
> > preference in an environment or ecosystem where the limitations thereof
or
> > therein cause or facilitate dominence to have relevence. I base this on
> my
> > own observations. Your statistics tend to support that contention. I
agree
> > that given certain circumstances the lesser males also get to reproduce.
> > Furthermore I can forsee that given certain other circumstances such as
> > unlimited territorial availability, and an abundance of food, cover,
> > breeding sites and females that the issue of dominance may become
> > signifigantly less relevent to who gets lucky. (I call this my perfect
> world
> > theory.)
> >
> > My GAR Misage are currently reminding me that domanence, where
applicable,
> > changes hands from time to time. Not only are all three males in that
> > breeding group currently displaying towards each other but the larger
> female
> > is chasing the slighter one. After a year together no one gets to be in
> > charge for more than a very short time. Therefore over the course of a
> > breeding groups life time more than one male is likely to get the lion's
> > share of the dates. This does not just arbitrarily limit the genepool.
> It
> > favors the fit. Not a bad idea even if it is not my own.
> >
> >
> > As to why you are not getting eggs, I will propose an unlikely but
actual
> > example which occurs in a C. Bitaeniatum (spelling?) 3 gal tank. This
is
> > not meant to reflect your circumstances but rather to demonstrate the
> impact
> > of intervening variables on what should be a rather simple process.
> >
> > In this aquarium as the water quality worstens offspring appear and
> develop.
> > Water changes adversely affect fish production. At face value this
> appears
> > unlikely.
> >
> > What actually happens is that I have a rather large "Ivory Apple Snail"
as
> a
> > co-tennant in the tank. When active he consumes up to one cubic inch of
> > riccia per day and whatever it contains. As my water quality degrades he
> > becomes substancially less active and the riccia grows unchecked
providing
> > cover for the eggs and hatchlings. Therefore the fish population
> increases.
> >
> > If you argue that the beta male is doing more mating under the cover of
> the
> > added flora, unseen by the alpha male or myself how could I counter?
> >
> > In your case are snails or other environmental variables playing a part
in
> > the equation? What would happen if you removed one or the other female?
> What
> > if you tried another single alpha male? If you had removed the alpha
male
> > rather than the beta male might not he beta male have become the alpha
> male
> > and stopped breeding? Could the fact that your beta male was breeding in
> > your presence be due to your presence itself? Was the beta male taking
> > advantage of the fact that you were distracting the Alpha male to sneak
a
> > date? The permutations on the possible theories are almost endless.
> >
> > I do not dispute your observations. The rats (or in this case
killifish)
> > are always right! I do not necessarily concur with your conclusion that
> > based on your observation that beta males in general or yours in
specific
> do
> > much of the breeding. I believe that further experimentation on your
part
> > could be even more revealing.
> >
> > I have had about four hours of sleep in the past 48 hours and just
> finished
> > reading most of the US Supreme court decision in Bush v Gore. I
sincerely
> > hope that the foregoing is at least in some way comprehenseable. At this
> > point I might want to reserve the option to offer corrections upon
further
> > reflection and with the aid of additional consciousness.
> >
> > In any event agree or disagree, I am enjoying stirring at this teapot
> > tempest.
> >
> > Lastly for those who might key on the lack of wisdom in keeping an apple
> > snail which eats a cubic inch of riccia per day in with my BIT, you may
> not
> > only be right but you may have missed the point I was trying to make.
Just
> > kidding! ;^) Thanks for keeping me on my toes or at least awake.
> >
> >
> >
> > Happy Holidays,
> >
> > -RJ-
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
> > Behalf Of Jay-Scott Moylan
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 8:56 PM
> > To: killietalk at aka_org
> > Subject: Re: Alpha Male Breeding Success
> >
> >
> > You present some thoughtful remarks. Some of the things you
> > postulate are possible. I am skeptical of the egg-eating theory,
though,
> > because I check mops frequently, and am pretty sure that spawning is not
> > taking place now. I also recall clearly that the alpha male, while
> > frequently attacking the beta male, seldom exibited any spawning
behavior
> > with the females whenever I observed them. I did however, occasionally
> see
> > the beta male engage in spawning behavior- and have seen the alpha
> > interrupt.
> >
> > I stand by what I said about the unexpectedly high success rate
of
> > non-dominant males in the spawning of many species. I have read many
> > articles and several studies, and seen several documentaries, proving
such
> > reproductive successes by genetic testing in many insects, deer, horses,
> > birds, primates of both the higher and lower sorts, etc. Some species
> have
> > 25-50% success by non-dominant males in species with clearly dominant
> alpha
> > males who violently repell competitors. In some species, the
non-dominant
> > males have special behaviors, and some even grow physical adaptations,
> that
> > allow them to successsfully sneak their genes into the pool. It makes
> > perfect sense, because if only single alpha males reproduced, genetic
> > diversity would be much more limited in a great many species.
> >
> > Jay Moylan
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: -RJ-
> > To: killietalk at aka_org
> > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 2:31 PM
> > Subject: RE: Species Maintenance List
> >
> >
> > Hmmm,
> >
> > Back in college, when the rats would not run the maze. It was postulated
> > that the rats were somehow defective. It was not until we began to
accept
> > the fact that the rats were always right and the only purpose for the
> theory
> > was to explain the rats behavior rather than control it that we began to
> > learn from our observations.
> >
> > There are obviously many variables which contribute to the breeding of
> > killifish. The number of breeding sites, the fertility of a particular
> male,
> > the size of the aquarium, the size of the breeding group and so on. The
> age
> > of a male also seems to affect his performance. My earlier comment did
> not
> > take all of these variables into account. I based my comments on the
> > availability of only one breeding site which may be dominated by a
> > particular male. This occurs predominantly in the event of dish spawning
> or
> > in cases where the dominant male can drive off the lesser males from the
> > breeding site. Your theories are just as valid as mine given your
> > circumstances.
> >
> > Your comments tend to suggest that the Alpha Male Splendopleure is not
> > taking advantage of the opportunities which his females are presenting
to
> > him or that the females do not prefer his companionship by inferring
that
> > that the beta male was the father apparent of the more abundant eggs.
Is
> it
> > somehow possible that when your alpha male no longer had the competition
> > from the beta male he found more time to eat the eggs? Or is it
possible
> > that the somewhat less persued females are eating the eggs? Or is it
> > possible that your fish are scattering the eggs where you are not
> collecting
> > them? I have also had some killies like Riv. Xiphidius just stop
> producing
> > eggs for no apparent reason. Whether they were scattering them, eating
> them
> > or just not laying them remains a mystery. I currently keep Ch.
> Biteniatum
> > and they regularly spawn in mid swim dropping the eggs wherever. I have
> not
> > been able to collect an egg in a mop for about a year now. I have
> "planted"
> > java moss all over the bottom of the tank and the fry just appear every
> now
> > and then. My limited experience with Ch Splendopleure also lead me to
> > believe that the pair I had ate their eggs.
> >
> > Sorry for the oversimplification. Your points are well taken. I really
> do
> > enjoy hearing alternateve points of view. It makes me think. and to
more
> > carefully compose my thoughts.
> >
> > Thank you for your reply and best regards,
> >
> > -RJ-
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf
> Of
> > Jay-Scott Moylan
> > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:40 PM
> > To: killietalk at aka_org
> > Subject: Re: Species Maintenance List
> >
> >
> > All of the research I have been reading about and seeing on The
> > Discovery Channel, Nationa G, etc. shows that much of the time the
> dominant
> > male only SEEMS to get the girls. In all different types of species, it
> > turns out the alphas do all the protecting, territory marking, social
> > discipline, etc., but that the non-dominant beta males, gamma males,
etc.
> > produce a surprising share of the actual offspring! I had an
interesting
> > case myself this summer. I had two pairs of Chromaphyosemion
> splendopleure
> > doing quite nicely together in a 2 1/2 gal tank. They were producing
many
> > eggs and fry (But I was not successful raising many!!!). Then the alpha
> > male began around the beginning of August to really pick on the beta
male.
> > To save his poor, battered life, I pulled him out and put him in a
> community
> > tank. The egg production has basically stopped. Now I rarely get any
> eggs-
> > and I am now quite successful with fry! It turned out to be too late to
> > save the beta male, so now I have little success with this species. Oh
> > well.
> >
> > Jay Moylan
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: -RJ-
> > To: killietalk at aka_org
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 4:36 PM
> > Subject: RE: Species Maintenance List
> >
> >
> > Carolyn,
> >
> > I use this method also. But it does tend to provide for natural
selection.
> > Usually the dominant male gets all of the girls. You can usually
identify
> > him as the guy hogging the breeding spot. The losers rarely get a date.
> On
> > the up side however, over the course of time dominance does sometimes
> change
> > hands and another guy fish gets lucky.
> >
> > -RJ-
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf
> Of
> > LadysSolo at aol_com
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 10:38 PM
> > To: killietalk at aka_org
> > Subject: Re: Species Maintenance List
> >
> >
> > What I have done in the past is basically "gang spawn" species using 4
or
> 5
> > males and 5 or 6 females in a 10 gallon tank (depends on the size of the
> > fish, of course - adjust tank size accordingly). I feel that the fish
will
> > randomly spawn with each other, basically ensuring some degree of
genetic
> > diversity within my population. This works with both peat spawners and
mop
> > spawners. It also spreads out aggression and actually minimizes it IMHO.
> > Other thoughts? Carolyn (in wet yucky snow)
> >
> > ---------------
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> >
> >
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>
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