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RE: Alpha Male Breeding Success
Jay,
A few final Ideas, I bought a pair of Celiae Celiae which were spawning
abundantly for their prior owner. But they would not do so for me. I was
using a floating mop. When I sank the mop I began to collect lots of eggs.
Have you tried moving the mop? Also could the water temperature have changed
over the past few months with the onset of winter? Also you might consider
changing the day-night cycle. If changing males does not work, you could
also keep both males together if you provide more cover (ie. java moss
plastic baggs or other partial deviders)in your setup.
Good luck,
-RJ-
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf Of Jay-Scott Moylan
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 7:19 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: Re: Alpha Male Breeding Success
More interesting remarks! Good stuff.
I use no plants except for Java moss in my fry tanks. No snails. I
like bare, more lab-type setups. In the tank (2 1/2 gal) is an acrylic mop,
a filter, and the fish. I feed the same foods consistently, and change the
water religiously on a weekly basis. None of those are factors in the
behavior change in my opinion. By the way, these are all young fish. I
figure they were about 4 months old in June when I got them at the
Convention.
On another note, I just noticed during a treat feeding of BBS in my
community tank that the non-dominant male is, in fact, still alive.
Apparently he has just been hiding for a couple of months! I am going to
try and capture him and switch the males and see if spawning resumes. I'll
let you all know the result.
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "-RJ-" <TranquilityBase at netzero_net>
To: <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:24 AM
Subject: RE: Alpha Male Breeding Success
> Greetings Jay and Friends,
>
> Upon further reflection, I am not sure that we are disagreeing. I have
> proposed that the dominent male killifish gets substancial breeding
> preference in an environment or ecosystem where the limitations thereof or
> therein cause or facilitate dominence to have relevence. I base this on
my
> own observations. Your statistics tend to support that contention. I agree
> that given certain circumstances the lesser males also get to reproduce.
> Furthermore I can forsee that given certain other circumstances such as
> unlimited territorial availability, and an abundance of food, cover,
> breeding sites and females that the issue of dominance may become
> signifigantly less relevent to who gets lucky. (I call this my perfect
world
> theory.)
>
> My GAR Misage are currently reminding me that domanence, where applicable,
> changes hands from time to time. Not only are all three males in that
> breeding group currently displaying towards each other but the larger
female
> is chasing the slighter one. After a year together no one gets to be in
> charge for more than a very short time. Therefore over the course of a
> breeding groups life time more than one male is likely to get the lion's
> share of the dates. This does not just arbitrarily limit the genepool.
It
> favors the fit. Not a bad idea even if it is not my own.
>
>
> As to why you are not getting eggs, I will propose an unlikely but actual
> example which occurs in a C. Bitaeniatum (spelling?) 3 gal tank. This is
> not meant to reflect your circumstances but rather to demonstrate the
impact
> of intervening variables on what should be a rather simple process.
>
> In this aquarium as the water quality worstens offspring appear and
develop.
> Water changes adversely affect fish production. At face value this
appears
> unlikely.
>
> What actually happens is that I have a rather large "Ivory Apple Snail" as
a
> co-tennant in the tank. When active he consumes up to one cubic inch of
> riccia per day and whatever it contains. As my water quality degrades he
> becomes substancially less active and the riccia grows unchecked providing
> cover for the eggs and hatchlings. Therefore the fish population
increases.
>
> If you argue that the beta male is doing more mating under the cover of
the
> added flora, unseen by the alpha male or myself how could I counter?
>
> In your case are snails or other environmental variables playing a part in
> the equation? What would happen if you removed one or the other female?
What
> if you tried another single alpha male? If you had removed the alpha male
> rather than the beta male might not he beta male have become the alpha
male
> and stopped breeding? Could the fact that your beta male was breeding in
> your presence be due to your presence itself? Was the beta male taking
> advantage of the fact that you were distracting the Alpha male to sneak a
> date? The permutations on the possible theories are almost endless.
>
> I do not dispute your observations. The rats (or in this case killifish)
> are always right! I do not necessarily concur with your conclusion that
> based on your observation that beta males in general or yours in specific
do
> much of the breeding. I believe that further experimentation on your part
> could be even more revealing.
>
> I have had about four hours of sleep in the past 48 hours and just
finished
> reading most of the US Supreme court decision in Bush v Gore. I sincerely
> hope that the foregoing is at least in some way comprehenseable. At this
> point I might want to reserve the option to offer corrections upon further
> reflection and with the aid of additional consciousness.
>
> In any event agree or disagree, I am enjoying stirring at this teapot
> tempest.
>
> Lastly for those who might key on the lack of wisdom in keeping an apple
> snail which eats a cubic inch of riccia per day in with my BIT, you may
not
> only be right but you may have missed the point I was trying to make. Just
> kidding! ;^) Thanks for keeping me on my toes or at least awake.
>
>
>
> Happy Holidays,
>
> -RJ-
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
> Behalf Of Jay-Scott Moylan
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 8:56 PM
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Subject: Re: Alpha Male Breeding Success
>
>
> You present some thoughtful remarks. Some of the things you
> postulate are possible. I am skeptical of the egg-eating theory, though,
> because I check mops frequently, and am pretty sure that spawning is not
> taking place now. I also recall clearly that the alpha male, while
> frequently attacking the beta male, seldom exibited any spawning behavior
> with the females whenever I observed them. I did however, occasionally
see
> the beta male engage in spawning behavior- and have seen the alpha
> interrupt.
>
> I stand by what I said about the unexpectedly high success rate of
> non-dominant males in the spawning of many species. I have read many
> articles and several studies, and seen several documentaries, proving such
> reproductive successes by genetic testing in many insects, deer, horses,
> birds, primates of both the higher and lower sorts, etc. Some species
have
> 25-50% success by non-dominant males in species with clearly dominant
alpha
> males who violently repell competitors. In some species, the non-dominant
> males have special behaviors, and some even grow physical adaptations,
that
> allow them to successsfully sneak their genes into the pool. It makes
> perfect sense, because if only single alpha males reproduced, genetic
> diversity would be much more limited in a great many species.
>
> Jay Moylan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: -RJ-
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 2:31 PM
> Subject: RE: Species Maintenance List
>
>
> Hmmm,
>
> Back in college, when the rats would not run the maze. It was postulated
> that the rats were somehow defective. It was not until we began to accept
> the fact that the rats were always right and the only purpose for the
theory
> was to explain the rats behavior rather than control it that we began to
> learn from our observations.
>
> There are obviously many variables which contribute to the breeding of
> killifish. The number of breeding sites, the fertility of a particular
male,
> the size of the aquarium, the size of the breeding group and so on. The
age
> of a male also seems to affect his performance. My earlier comment did
not
> take all of these variables into account. I based my comments on the
> availability of only one breeding site which may be dominated by a
> particular male. This occurs predominantly in the event of dish spawning
or
> in cases where the dominant male can drive off the lesser males from the
> breeding site. Your theories are just as valid as mine given your
> circumstances.
>
> Your comments tend to suggest that the Alpha Male Splendopleure is not
> taking advantage of the opportunities which his females are presenting to
> him or that the females do not prefer his companionship by inferring that
> that the beta male was the father apparent of the more abundant eggs. Is
it
> somehow possible that when your alpha male no longer had the competition
> from the beta male he found more time to eat the eggs? Or is it possible
> that the somewhat less persued females are eating the eggs? Or is it
> possible that your fish are scattering the eggs where you are not
collecting
> them? I have also had some killies like Riv. Xiphidius just stop
producing
> eggs for no apparent reason. Whether they were scattering them, eating
them
> or just not laying them remains a mystery. I currently keep Ch.
Biteniatum
> and they regularly spawn in mid swim dropping the eggs wherever. I have
not
> been able to collect an egg in a mop for about a year now. I have
"planted"
> java moss all over the bottom of the tank and the fry just appear every
now
> and then. My limited experience with Ch Splendopleure also lead me to
> believe that the pair I had ate their eggs.
>
> Sorry for the oversimplification. Your points are well taken. I really
do
> enjoy hearing alternateve points of view. It makes me think. and to more
> carefully compose my thoughts.
>
> Thank you for your reply and best regards,
>
> -RJ-
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On Behalf
Of
> Jay-Scott Moylan
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:40 PM
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Subject: Re: Species Maintenance List
>
>
> All of the research I have been reading about and seeing on The
> Discovery Channel, Nationa G, etc. shows that much of the time the
dominant
> male only SEEMS to get the girls. In all different types of species, it
> turns out the alphas do all the protecting, territory marking, social
> discipline, etc., but that the non-dominant beta males, gamma males, etc.
> produce a surprising share of the actual offspring! I had an interesting
> case myself this summer. I had two pairs of Chromaphyosemion
splendopleure
> doing quite nicely together in a 2 1/2 gal tank. They were producing many
> eggs and fry (But I was not successful raising many!!!). Then the alpha
> male began around the beginning of August to really pick on the beta male.
> To save his poor, battered life, I pulled him out and put him in a
community
> tank. The egg production has basically stopped. Now I rarely get any
eggs-
> and I am now quite successful with fry! It turned out to be too late to
> save the beta male, so now I have little success with this species. Oh
> well.
>
> Jay Moylan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: -RJ-
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 4:36 PM
> Subject: RE: Species Maintenance List
>
>
> Carolyn,
>
> I use this method also. But it does tend to provide for natural selection.
> Usually the dominant male gets all of the girls. You can usually identify
> him as the guy hogging the breeding spot. The losers rarely get a date.
On
> the up side however, over the course of time dominance does sometimes
change
> hands and another guy fish gets lucky.
>
> -RJ-
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On Behalf
Of
> LadysSolo at aol_com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 10:38 PM
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Subject: Re: Species Maintenance List
>
>
> What I have done in the past is basically "gang spawn" species using 4 or
5
> males and 5 or 6 females in a 10 gallon tank (depends on the size of the
> fish, of course - adjust tank size accordingly). I feel that the fish will
> randomly spawn with each other, basically ensuring some degree of genetic
> diversity within my population. This works with both peat spawners and mop
> spawners. It also spreads out aggression and actually minimizes it IMHO.
> Other thoughts? Carolyn (in wet yucky snow)
>
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