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Re: Alpha Male Breeding Success
More interesting remarks! Good stuff.
I use no plants except for Java moss in my fry tanks. No snails. I
like bare, more lab-type setups. In the tank (2 1/2 gal) is an acrylic mop,
a filter, and the fish. I feed the same foods consistently, and change the
water religiously on a weekly basis. None of those are factors in the
behavior change in my opinion. By the way, these are all young fish. I
figure they were about 4 months old in June when I got them at the
Convention.
On another note, I just noticed during a treat feeding of BBS in my
community tank that the non-dominant male is, in fact, still alive.
Apparently he has just been hiding for a couple of months! I am going to
try and capture him and switch the males and see if spawning resumes. I'll
let you all know the result.
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "-RJ-" <TranquilityBase at netzero_net>
To: <killietalk at aka_org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:24 AM
Subject: RE: Alpha Male Breeding Success
> Greetings Jay and Friends,
>
> Upon further reflection, I am not sure that we are disagreeing. I have
> proposed that the dominent male killifish gets substancial breeding
> preference in an environment or ecosystem where the limitations thereof or
> therein cause or facilitate dominence to have relevence. I base this on
my
> own observations. Your statistics tend to support that contention. I agree
> that given certain circumstances the lesser males also get to reproduce.
> Furthermore I can forsee that given certain other circumstances such as
> unlimited territorial availability, and an abundance of food, cover,
> breeding sites and females that the issue of dominance may become
> signifigantly less relevent to who gets lucky. (I call this my perfect
world
> theory.)
>
> My GAR Misage are currently reminding me that domanence, where applicable,
> changes hands from time to time. Not only are all three males in that
> breeding group currently displaying towards each other but the larger
female
> is chasing the slighter one. After a year together no one gets to be in
> charge for more than a very short time. Therefore over the course of a
> breeding groups life time more than one male is likely to get the lion's
> share of the dates. This does not just arbitrarily limit the genepool.
It
> favors the fit. Not a bad idea even if it is not my own.
>
>
> As to why you are not getting eggs, I will propose an unlikely but actual
> example which occurs in a C. Bitaeniatum (spelling?) 3 gal tank. This is
> not meant to reflect your circumstances but rather to demonstrate the
impact
> of intervening variables on what should be a rather simple process.
>
> In this aquarium as the water quality worstens offspring appear and
develop.
> Water changes adversely affect fish production. At face value this
appears
> unlikely.
>
> What actually happens is that I have a rather large "Ivory Apple Snail" as
a
> co-tennant in the tank. When active he consumes up to one cubic inch of
> riccia per day and whatever it contains. As my water quality degrades he
> becomes substancially less active and the riccia grows unchecked providing
> cover for the eggs and hatchlings. Therefore the fish population
increases.
>
> If you argue that the beta male is doing more mating under the cover of
the
> added flora, unseen by the alpha male or myself how could I counter?
>
> In your case are snails or other environmental variables playing a part in
> the equation? What would happen if you removed one or the other female?
What
> if you tried another single alpha male? If you had removed the alpha male
> rather than the beta male might not he beta male have become the alpha
male
> and stopped breeding? Could the fact that your beta male was breeding in
> your presence be due to your presence itself? Was the beta male taking
> advantage of the fact that you were distracting the Alpha male to sneak a
> date? The permutations on the possible theories are almost endless.
>
> I do not dispute your observations. The rats (or in this case killifish)
> are always right! I do not necessarily concur with your conclusion that
> based on your observation that beta males in general or yours in specific
do
> much of the breeding. I believe that further experimentation on your part
> could be even more revealing.
>
> I have had about four hours of sleep in the past 48 hours and just
finished
> reading most of the US Supreme court decision in Bush v Gore. I sincerely
> hope that the foregoing is at least in some way comprehenseable. At this
> point I might want to reserve the option to offer corrections upon further
> reflection and with the aid of additional consciousness.
>
> In any event agree or disagree, I am enjoying stirring at this teapot
> tempest.
>
> Lastly for those who might key on the lack of wisdom in keeping an apple
> snail which eats a cubic inch of riccia per day in with my BIT, you may
not
> only be right but you may have missed the point I was trying to make. Just
> kidding! ;^) Thanks for keeping me on my toes or at least awake.
>
>
>
> Happy Holidays,
>
> -RJ-
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
> Behalf Of Jay-Scott Moylan
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 8:56 PM
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Subject: Re: Alpha Male Breeding Success
>
>
> You present some thoughtful remarks. Some of the things you
> postulate are possible. I am skeptical of the egg-eating theory, though,
> because I check mops frequently, and am pretty sure that spawning is not
> taking place now. I also recall clearly that the alpha male, while
> frequently attacking the beta male, seldom exibited any spawning behavior
> with the females whenever I observed them. I did however, occasionally
see
> the beta male engage in spawning behavior- and have seen the alpha
> interrupt.
>
> I stand by what I said about the unexpectedly high success rate of
> non-dominant males in the spawning of many species. I have read many
> articles and several studies, and seen several documentaries, proving such
> reproductive successes by genetic testing in many insects, deer, horses,
> birds, primates of both the higher and lower sorts, etc. Some species
have
> 25-50% success by non-dominant males in species with clearly dominant
alpha
> males who violently repell competitors. In some species, the non-dominant
> males have special behaviors, and some even grow physical adaptations,
that
> allow them to successsfully sneak their genes into the pool. It makes
> perfect sense, because if only single alpha males reproduced, genetic
> diversity would be much more limited in a great many species.
>
> Jay Moylan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: -RJ-
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 2:31 PM
> Subject: RE: Species Maintenance List
>
>
> Hmmm,
>
> Back in college, when the rats would not run the maze. It was postulated
> that the rats were somehow defective. It was not until we began to accept
> the fact that the rats were always right and the only purpose for the
theory
> was to explain the rats behavior rather than control it that we began to
> learn from our observations.
>
> There are obviously many variables which contribute to the breeding of
> killifish. The number of breeding sites, the fertility of a particular
male,
> the size of the aquarium, the size of the breeding group and so on. The
age
> of a male also seems to affect his performance. My earlier comment did
not
> take all of these variables into account. I based my comments on the
> availability of only one breeding site which may be dominated by a
> particular male. This occurs predominantly in the event of dish spawning
or
> in cases where the dominant male can drive off the lesser males from the
> breeding site. Your theories are just as valid as mine given your
> circumstances.
>
> Your comments tend to suggest that the Alpha Male Splendopleure is not
> taking advantage of the opportunities which his females are presenting to
> him or that the females do not prefer his companionship by inferring that
> that the beta male was the father apparent of the more abundant eggs. Is
it
> somehow possible that when your alpha male no longer had the competition
> from the beta male he found more time to eat the eggs? Or is it possible
> that the somewhat less persued females are eating the eggs? Or is it
> possible that your fish are scattering the eggs where you are not
collecting
> them? I have also had some killies like Riv. Xiphidius just stop
producing
> eggs for no apparent reason. Whether they were scattering them, eating
them
> or just not laying them remains a mystery. I currently keep Ch.
Biteniatum
> and they regularly spawn in mid swim dropping the eggs wherever. I have
not
> been able to collect an egg in a mop for about a year now. I have
"planted"
> java moss all over the bottom of the tank and the fry just appear every
now
> and then. My limited experience with Ch Splendopleure also lead me to
> believe that the pair I had ate their eggs.
>
> Sorry for the oversimplification. Your points are well taken. I really
do
> enjoy hearing alternateve points of view. It makes me think. and to more
> carefully compose my thoughts.
>
> Thank you for your reply and best regards,
>
> -RJ-
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On Behalf
Of
> Jay-Scott Moylan
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:40 PM
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Subject: Re: Species Maintenance List
>
>
> All of the research I have been reading about and seeing on The
> Discovery Channel, Nationa G, etc. shows that much of the time the
dominant
> male only SEEMS to get the girls. In all different types of species, it
> turns out the alphas do all the protecting, territory marking, social
> discipline, etc., but that the non-dominant beta males, gamma males, etc.
> produce a surprising share of the actual offspring! I had an interesting
> case myself this summer. I had two pairs of Chromaphyosemion
splendopleure
> doing quite nicely together in a 2 1/2 gal tank. They were producing many
> eggs and fry (But I was not successful raising many!!!). Then the alpha
> male began around the beginning of August to really pick on the beta male.
> To save his poor, battered life, I pulled him out and put him in a
community
> tank. The egg production has basically stopped. Now I rarely get any
eggs-
> and I am now quite successful with fry! It turned out to be too late to
> save the beta male, so now I have little success with this species. Oh
> well.
>
> Jay Moylan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: -RJ-
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 4:36 PM
> Subject: RE: Species Maintenance List
>
>
> Carolyn,
>
> I use this method also. But it does tend to provide for natural selection.
> Usually the dominant male gets all of the girls. You can usually identify
> him as the guy hogging the breeding spot. The losers rarely get a date.
On
> the up side however, over the course of time dominance does sometimes
change
> hands and another guy fish gets lucky.
>
> -RJ-
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On Behalf
Of
> LadysSolo at aol_com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 10:38 PM
> To: killietalk at aka_org
> Subject: Re: Species Maintenance List
>
>
> What I have done in the past is basically "gang spawn" species using 4 or
5
> males and 5 or 6 females in a 10 gallon tank (depends on the size of the
> fish, of course - adjust tank size accordingly). I feel that the fish will
> randomly spawn with each other, basically ensuring some degree of genetic
> diversity within my population. This works with both peat spawners and mop
> spawners. It also spreads out aggression and actually minimizes it IMHO.
> Other thoughts? Carolyn (in wet yucky snow)
>
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