[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
RE: Alpha Male Breeding Success
Greetings Jay and Friends,
Upon further reflection, I am not sure that we are disagreeing. I have
proposed that the dominent male killifish gets substancial breeding
preference in an environment or ecosystem where the limitations thereof or
therein cause or facilitate dominence to have relevence. I base this on my
own observations. Your statistics tend to support that contention. I agree
that given certain circumstances the lesser males also get to reproduce.
Furthermore I can forsee that given certain other circumstances such as
unlimited territorial availability, and an abundance of food, cover,
breeding sites and females that the issue of dominance may become
signifigantly less relevent to who gets lucky. (I call this my perfect world
theory.)
My GAR Misage are currently reminding me that domanence, where applicable,
changes hands from time to time. Not only are all three males in that
breeding group currently displaying towards each other but the larger female
is chasing the slighter one. After a year together no one gets to be in
charge for more than a very short time. Therefore over the course of a
breeding groups life time more than one male is likely to get the lion's
share of the dates. This does not just arbitrarily limit the genepool. It
favors the fit. Not a bad idea even if it is not my own.
As to why you are not getting eggs, I will propose an unlikely but actual
example which occurs in a C. Bitaeniatum (spelling?) 3 gal tank. This is
not meant to reflect your circumstances but rather to demonstrate the impact
of intervening variables on what should be a rather simple process.
In this aquarium as the water quality worstens offspring appear and develop.
Water changes adversely affect fish production. At face value this appears
unlikely.
What actually happens is that I have a rather large "Ivory Apple Snail" as a
co-tennant in the tank. When active he consumes up to one cubic inch of
riccia per day and whatever it contains. As my water quality degrades he
becomes substancially less active and the riccia grows unchecked providing
cover for the eggs and hatchlings. Therefore the fish population increases.
If you argue that the beta male is doing more mating under the cover of the
added flora, unseen by the alpha male or myself how could I counter?
In your case are snails or other environmental variables playing a part in
the equation? What would happen if you removed one or the other female? What
if you tried another single alpha male? If you had removed the alpha male
rather than the beta male might not he beta male have become the alpha male
and stopped breeding? Could the fact that your beta male was breeding in
your presence be due to your presence itself? Was the beta male taking
advantage of the fact that you were distracting the Alpha male to sneak a
date? The permutations on the possible theories are almost endless.
I do not dispute your observations. The rats (or in this case killifish)
are always right! I do not necessarily concur with your conclusion that
based on your observation that beta males in general or yours in specific do
much of the breeding. I believe that further experimentation on your part
could be even more revealing.
I have had about four hours of sleep in the past 48 hours and just finished
reading most of the US Supreme court decision in Bush v Gore. I sincerely
hope that the foregoing is at least in some way comprehenseable. At this
point I might want to reserve the option to offer corrections upon further
reflection and with the aid of additional consciousness.
In any event agree or disagree, I am enjoying stirring at this teapot
tempest.
Lastly for those who might key on the lack of wisdom in keeping an apple
snail which eats a cubic inch of riccia per day in with my BIT, you may not
only be right but you may have missed the point I was trying to make. Just
kidding! ;^) Thanks for keeping me on my toes or at least awake.
Happy Holidays,
-RJ-
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On
Behalf Of Jay-Scott Moylan
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 8:56 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: Re: Alpha Male Breeding Success
You present some thoughtful remarks. Some of the things you
postulate are possible. I am skeptical of the egg-eating theory, though,
because I check mops frequently, and am pretty sure that spawning is not
taking place now. I also recall clearly that the alpha male, while
frequently attacking the beta male, seldom exibited any spawning behavior
with the females whenever I observed them. I did however, occasionally see
the beta male engage in spawning behavior- and have seen the alpha
interrupt.
I stand by what I said about the unexpectedly high success rate of
non-dominant males in the spawning of many species. I have read many
articles and several studies, and seen several documentaries, proving such
reproductive successes by genetic testing in many insects, deer, horses,
birds, primates of both the higher and lower sorts, etc. Some species have
25-50% success by non-dominant males in species with clearly dominant alpha
males who violently repell competitors. In some species, the non-dominant
males have special behaviors, and some even grow physical adaptations, that
allow them to successsfully sneak their genes into the pool. It makes
perfect sense, because if only single alpha males reproduced, genetic
diversity would be much more limited in a great many species.
Jay Moylan
----- Original Message -----
From: -RJ-
To: killietalk at aka_org
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 2:31 PM
Subject: RE: Species Maintenance List
Hmmm,
Back in college, when the rats would not run the maze. It was postulated
that the rats were somehow defective. It was not until we began to accept
the fact that the rats were always right and the only purpose for the theory
was to explain the rats behavior rather than control it that we began to
learn from our observations.
There are obviously many variables which contribute to the breeding of
killifish. The number of breeding sites, the fertility of a particular male,
the size of the aquarium, the size of the breeding group and so on. The age
of a male also seems to affect his performance. My earlier comment did not
take all of these variables into account. I based my comments on the
availability of only one breeding site which may be dominated by a
particular male. This occurs predominantly in the event of dish spawning or
in cases where the dominant male can drive off the lesser males from the
breeding site. Your theories are just as valid as mine given your
circumstances.
Your comments tend to suggest that the Alpha Male Splendopleure is not
taking advantage of the opportunities which his females are presenting to
him or that the females do not prefer his companionship by inferring that
that the beta male was the father apparent of the more abundant eggs. Is it
somehow possible that when your alpha male no longer had the competition
from the beta male he found more time to eat the eggs? Or is it possible
that the somewhat less persued females are eating the eggs? Or is it
possible that your fish are scattering the eggs where you are not collecting
them? I have also had some killies like Riv. Xiphidius just stop producing
eggs for no apparent reason. Whether they were scattering them, eating them
or just not laying them remains a mystery. I currently keep Ch. Biteniatum
and they regularly spawn in mid swim dropping the eggs wherever. I have not
been able to collect an egg in a mop for about a year now. I have "planted"
java moss all over the bottom of the tank and the fry just appear every now
and then. My limited experience with Ch Splendopleure also lead me to
believe that the pair I had ate their eggs.
Sorry for the oversimplification. Your points are well taken. I really do
enjoy hearing alternateve points of view. It makes me think. and to more
carefully compose my thoughts.
Thank you for your reply and best regards,
-RJ-
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On Behalf Of
Jay-Scott Moylan
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:40 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: Re: Species Maintenance List
All of the research I have been reading about and seeing on The
Discovery Channel, Nationa G, etc. shows that much of the time the dominant
male only SEEMS to get the girls. In all different types of species, it
turns out the alphas do all the protecting, territory marking, social
discipline, etc., but that the non-dominant beta males, gamma males, etc.
produce a surprising share of the actual offspring! I had an interesting
case myself this summer. I had two pairs of Chromaphyosemion splendopleure
doing quite nicely together in a 2 1/2 gal tank. They were producing many
eggs and fry (But I was not successful raising many!!!). Then the alpha
male began around the beginning of August to really pick on the beta male.
To save his poor, battered life, I pulled him out and put him in a community
tank. The egg production has basically stopped. Now I rarely get any eggs-
and I am now quite successful with fry! It turned out to be too late to
save the beta male, so now I have little success with this species. Oh
well.
Jay Moylan
----- Original Message -----
From: -RJ-
To: killietalk at aka_org
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 4:36 PM
Subject: RE: Species Maintenance List
Carolyn,
I use this method also. But it does tend to provide for natural selection.
Usually the dominant male gets all of the girls. You can usually identify
him as the guy hogging the breeding spot. The losers rarely get a date. On
the up side however, over the course of time dominance does sometimes change
hands and another guy fish gets lucky.
-RJ-
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-killietalk at aka_org [mailto:owner-killietalk at aka_org]On Behalf Of
LadysSolo at aol_com
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 10:38 PM
To: killietalk at aka_org
Subject: Re: Species Maintenance List
What I have done in the past is basically "gang spawn" species using 4 or 5
males and 5 or 6 females in a 10 gallon tank (depends on the size of the
fish, of course - adjust tank size accordingly). I feel that the fish will
randomly spawn with each other, basically ensuring some degree of genetic
diversity within my population. This works with both peat spawners and mop
spawners. It also spreads out aggression and actually minimizes it IMHO.
Other thoughts? Carolyn (in wet yucky snow)
---------------
See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________
Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633
___________________________________________________________
---------------
See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe
Follow-Ups:
References: