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Re: [Killietalk] copper leaching from new plumbing
Wright,
It is a while since we argued ;)
I still have to disagree with you - a little, on the pH thing.
In most cases freshwater fish are quite adaptable with pH, but their
physiology is such that different species are adapted to different pH
ranges.
Often we might not notice this directly, but it does place increased stress
on the fish, in particular the respiratory system and the kidneys. Also the
blood of fish is quite complex compared to other animals and is quite
dependent on pH, Root effect etc.
Although agreed most freshwater fish are quite tolerant of variations of pH,
but fish in general have to spend a fair amount of energy keeping their
blood chemistry correct.
For fish from very particular environments I would be cautious of ignoring
pH too much as their Kidneys in particular and respiratory system to a
degree would be placed under increased stress.
The renal system is used to excrete excess H+ etc. That is also one reason
why marine fish are very specific in terms of pH as they do not have the
excretory capacity of freshwater fish. Other inorganic salts are used such
as Phosphates, Carbonates and other -ates and similar in these excretory
functions. Since solubility is highly dependent on pH, lots of very weird
things can happen when you have unusual situations like low pH and high
Hardness and vice versa. I remember vaguely reading something about crystal
formation due to precipitation on gill membranes in such circumstances.
Another side effect of unfamiliar pH for a fish would be increased
metabolism.
Still in general I agree a lot of freshwater fish could not care less, but
for those fish from particular environments, or when you start getting into
extremes then I am sure pH becomes quite important.
Scott,
Singapore
-----Original Message-----
From: killietalk-bounces at aka_org [mailto:killietalk-bounces at aka_org] On
Behalf Of Wright Huntley
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:59 AM
To: killifish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Killietalk] copper leaching from new plumbing
Mach Fukada wrote:
> Aloha Wright
> Thanks for the info. Will give me somthing to think about. Our
> water was fairly soft and acid. Right out of the tap as it is surface
water
> coming vial the ferns and mosses in the watershed. All struck me as odd
> when they started adding phosphoric acid then went a 180 degrees to add
soda
> ash. Now somtimes ph was 10 out of the tap. Would almost give up and
> work on rift lake chiclids..... Maybe pupfish would be better......
>
> MTF
>
First, fish don't really feel or care what the pH is (despite loads of
published mythology on the subject). Yes, the major "Atlases" are quite
wrong on this point. Read Scheel's ROTOW for the truth.
Between about 3 and 10, pH has no direct effect on fish. Indirectly it
can change ammonium (harmless) to ammonia (deadly at a few ppb) at high
pH or induce brown-blood disease at low pH, if a lot of nitrite is
present. Otherwise, they can't feel the pH any more than you can when
you dive into a swimming pool. There is no such thing as pH shock.
I used to breed wild Bettas in very low pH water, because there seem to
be whole classes of bacteria that cannot survive down below 5 or so,
This may help rain-forest fishes, too. Mostly it helps eggs survive, for
the parents could care less. Hard water, at any pH, can certainly keep
some eggs from hatching.
The EPA has mandated the addition of alkaline materials (soda ash or
sodium hydroxide) to water systems, to stop the exact metallic corrosion
you were first concerned about. The lead in pipe joints is scarier than
the copper, BTW. It is long-term cumulative poison and a neurotoxin at
that. What they add is rarely a buffer, so a bit of aeration will
dissolve enough atmospheric CO2 to drop the pH a long way.
BTW, many of our desert pupfish live in surprisingly soft water. I often
carry a tds meter on our Desert Springs Action Committee work parties,
and a tds of 100 ppm isn't exactly rare. It is seldom over 200. In
captivity harder water may provide some essential trace elements that
domestic soft (or RO) waters don't have. I have found a bit of boric
acid is a good thing for them, too. [Much domestic water is totally
lacking in boron.]
Wright
--
Wright Huntley - Rt. 001 Box K36, Bishop CA 93514 - whuntley at verizon_net
760 937-2276 (cell) 760 872-3995.
http://www.self-gov.org/wspq.html
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