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Re: Killing Fish



Jennifer Glover wrote:

<We were discussing the issue of humanely killing fish at work and one of
the guys here mentioned a way to euthenize fish.  Instead of freezing or
using boiling water, how about using alcohol or some other substance that
would kill instantly?  I know hard liquor maks my tongue go numb, so I
would imagine it would make the fish numb as well.  Plus the alcohol would
kill them pretty instantaneous.  I have never had the need to kill any
fish (they seem to be dying all on their own in my tank lately), so I
haven't had a chance to try this, but it might be like the gas chamber for
people.  Please don't flame me, I am just offering a completely
unresearched idea.

Jenn>

This isn't a flame :). I remember when I was a kid in Korea, my aunt bought me
a couple of catfish or eels. I stuck em in some water and kept them for about
a week. There were about twenty in about a liter and a half of water so I had
to change the water about every two days. After what would be my last "water
change" for some time, the fish started thrashing around like I'd lit there
barbells on fire. This went on for about five minutes before they all went
belly up. Being a kid, I just watched wondering what in the world they were
all so excited about. Later that night my grandma asked me if I'd seen any
bottles of liquor lying around. Anyway, it was a pretty awful way for the fish
to die. I think the one part vodka to five parts water method works 'cause it
knocks the fish out and the fish never recover sort of like when you sit in a
running car in the garage.

Dan P

-- BEGIN included message


Aquatic Plants Digest     Friday, November 6 1998     Volume 03 : Number 627



In this issue:

	Re: flagfish, lights
	Re: Oto Cats
	Re: Glosso
	Carbon, trace elements, water clarity
	Re: propogation trays and lillaeopsis
	otos
	Re: Glossostigma
	tank startup, SAE and farowellas
	Re: Dying Fish
	Re: Killing Fish
	Of Iron, chelators, and test kits
	Killing fish
	Glossostigma vs liliaeopsis
	Where do you draw the lines on hard/soft water
	Clams/ Lost adress
	Glosso
	Dying Fish
	Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #626
	RE: killing fish - was dying fish

See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing from the
Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:54:43 -0600 (CST)
From: eworobe at cc_UManitoba.CA
Subject: Re: flagfish, lights

I always thought that you should have 1 male for every 2 to 3 females. 
This way males are otherwise occupied and dont get around to shredding fins.
Is this not correct?

Which is the better choice:  4000k bulbs or 5000K bulbs?

dave.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:17:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Gerry Skau <gerry at ans_net>
Subject: Re: Oto Cats

	I have kept otos at home in my 29 gallon tanks without much
luck-they usually died. I have a tiny tank here at work-a 5 1/2 gallon
with 3 of them in it-I've had them about 6 months with no problems.

	I suspect Nitrates may be the culprit-that's with an A. My tanks
at home usually have a high nitrate level. I change a gallon a week in my
tiny tank and give the water away for folks to use on their terrestrial
office plants. While I haven't measured-with that high of a percentage of
water change-I suspect that the nitrate level is pretty low. You might
want to check that.  

	Its a symbiotic relationship-the office plants love the tank
water-the aquatic plants, betta, and otos love the water change. Once
everyone's office plants are hooked on the water-maybe I will start
charging them for it. LOL.

 
       Gerry Skau
       ANS BigDial Engineering

       "Clever policy consists in making nations believe they are free."
       Napoleon Bonaparte


                       


	

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:20:35 -0500 (EST)
From: ac554 at freenet_carleton.ca (David Whittaker)
Subject: Re: Glosso

Steven Dixon asked...

>So I would like to ask the group, have any of you grown a Lilliaeopsis
>lawn in really soft water?  If yes, I would love to hear any details you
>might have.

Yes, in plain fine aquarium gravel. GH = 2 or 3, KH = 2, DIY CO2,
PMDD, <2 watts of fluorescent lighting per gallon, accompanied by
a bit of Bacopa caroliniana, rotalla indica, a few E. latifolia,
and a very light fishload in a 15 gallon tank. A very thick lawn
developed with circulation provided by an AquaClear 200.

- --
Dave Whittaker
ac554 at FreeNet_Carleton.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:17:48 -0600 
From: "Beard, Kelly" <KBeard at comdata_com>
Subject: Carbon, trace elements, water clarity

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:54:05 PST
> From: "alberto rodriguez" <alberto_95 at hotmail_com>
> Subject: [none]
> 
> theres a discution about carbon that can eliminate trace elements from 
> the water, i guess thats true, what other media i could use in my tank 
> to maintain water clarity but keeping the trace?
> 
	The experiment you refer to is on The Krib.  http://www.thekrib.com

	You might try Seachem's Purigen.  I have some, but am not using it
currently.  The product label states that it "polishes better than a diatom
filter", and "has virtually no impact on trace elements".  The front label
has something like "Organic control" or something like that.

	You must buy Seachem's "The Bag" to go with it, however.  The
particle size is so small that it requires an inflexible bag.  Panty hose,
and your garden-variety filter bags will let the stuff through.  A plus is
that the product is rechargeable, using a bleach solution to clean it.

	A similar product is Hypersorb, also by Seachem.  I've not tried it,
but the product description was similiar.

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<UL>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Date: Thu, 05 Nov =
1998 10:54:05 PST</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From: &quot;alberto =
rodriguez&quot; &lt;alberto_95 at hotmail_com&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: =
[none]</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">theres a discution =
about carbon that can eliminate trace elements from </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the water, i guess =
thats true, what other media i could use in my tank </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to maintain water =
clarity but keeping the trace?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The experiment you =
refer to is on The Krib.&nbsp;<U> <A HREF=3D"http://www.thekrib.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.thekrib.com</A></U></FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">You might try =
Seachem's Purigen.&nbsp; I have some, but am not using it =
currently.&nbsp; The product label states that it &quot;polishes better =
than a diatom filter&quot;, and &quot;has virtually no impact on trace =
elements&quot;.&nbsp; The front label has something like &quot;Organic =
control&quot; or something like that.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">You must buy =
Seachem's &quot;The Bag&quot; to go with it, however.&nbsp; The =
particle size is so small that it requires an inflexible bag.&nbsp; =
Panty hose, and your garden-variety filter bags will let the stuff =
through.&nbsp; A plus is that the product is rechargeable, using a =
bleach solution to clean it.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A similar product is =
Hypersorb, also by Seachem.&nbsp; I've not tried it, but the product =
description was similiar.</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE0901.BD4BE4FC--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:28:27 -0700 (MST)
From: "Roger S. Miller" <rgrmill at rt66_com>
Subject: Re: propogation trays and lillaeopsis

On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Karen Randall wrote:

> ..but I still have it in a propagation tray on a windowsill, so I
> can't say much about it under tank conditions.

Karen, could you describe how you set up your propogation trays, when
you use them, what you use them for and so on?

_____________

then, Steve Dixon wrote:

> In soft water, I have tried unsuccessfully for years under all
> sorts of conditions to grow a Lilliaeopsis lawn.  Even the mighty "muddy
> water" veteran, George Booth, once told he couldn't grow a Lilliaeopsis
> lawn in his soft Rocky Mountain runoff water!
> So I would like to ask the group, have any of you grown a Lilliaeopsis
> lawn in really soft water?  If yes, I would love to hear any details you
> might have.

It's not quite up to "lawn" proportions yet, but I have lillaeopsis
growing quickly in soft water with some CO2 addition, under moderate light
in an inorganic substrate.  Marsilea is growing well at the other end of
the same tank.  The marsilea tolerates shaded areas much better than the
lillaeopsis does, and the spreading marsilea leaves do a better job of
covering space than do the little upright blades of lillaeopsis.

The water, while quite soft is well buffered and carries quite a bit of
sodium and sulfate.  It contains very little calcium and magnesium so it's
soft water.


Roger Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:39:20 EST
From: Piabinha at aol_com
Subject: otos

jmiller asked about otocinclus.  in my experience, they are rather delicate
and are all wild caught, since captive breeding is not easy.  i would say try
getting a larger group next time, they might take a while to adjust, they also
like being in a group.  also, try to look for bigger and healthier looking
ones, they all seem to be starved when they arrive in petshops.  i have heard
of someone breeding them in a tank that was sunlit and full of green algae.

they are great algae eaters for cleaning leaves taht may be too weak to
support a bigger fish.  however, they will not eat the dreaded black brush or
hair algae.

tsuh yang chen, nyc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:53:02 -0800
From: Hoa Nguyen <nguyenh at nosc_mil>
Subject: Re: Glossostigma

>Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:05:35 -0800
>From: Wright Huntley <huntley1 at home_com>
>Subject: Glossostigma

>I think I found out why mine never did well. Most of my plants are in
>moderate-to-hard water. Glossostigma seems to flourish across the bay in
>SF ultra-soft water. It looks like it just does not like harder water.
>Any confirmation for this observation?

Wright,

I don't have a hardness test kit, so I don't know what the hardness of 
my tank water is.  But I use tap water for waterchanging.  It's fairly hard
(kH=8.4, GH=18), and my glossostigma does fine.

Hoa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:06:50 -0700
From: sae at arts_ubc.ca (Olga Betts)
Subject: tank startup, SAE and farowellas

 Morten Karlsen wrote:
>Subject: Planted tank startup assurance
>
>Greetings from Norway, IT'S SNOWING TODAY!

Greetings from Vancouver, Canada. It's *not* snowing here yet.

>106 W fluorescent light, Sylvana Grolux + some warm white. Tank size is
>110 gallons.

Your lighting sounds too low. It should be about 220 watts.

>My Bacopas showed reddish leaves, thats when I started with PMDD - maybe
>it's missing something?

Bacopa has reddish leaves when it is happy ...so that's okay.

>Am I doing this fairly right? Tips will be appreciated :)

Sounds pretty good to me...except for the light. You may have to work on
balancing the fertilizer with that mix...but hey, we all do. And some test
kits will come in handy as soon as you can afford them.

Olga
in Vancouver



John van Rompu wrote:
>Subject: Re: SAE's

>Forgive my ignorance on buzz words, but what is an SAE ? Siamese algae eater?

 Yes. A Siamese Algae Eater. Nice fish!

Olga
in Vancouver


Stephen Boulet wrote:
>Subject: Re: Algae eating fish

>Any comments on the suitability for bristlenose plecos/farrowellas for a
>planted tank?

I have a bristle nose and 2 farleys in my 48 gallon tank. I love the
Farleys and they clean the plants very delicately and well...also eat algae
on the glass. They eat micro algae. I presume that this means they get it
when very young and so prevent it from growing. Mine do an excellent job
and they are neat looking fish.

I suspect that the bristle nose rasps my sword plant leaves and giant hygro
leaves as there isn't a lot of algae in my tank for him. He cleans the
glass at night and mainly rasps a piece of wood. I do put zuccini and
cucumber in for him but I'd have to put so much in to keep him from rasping
on the plants that it just isn't practical. If I put two long-ways slices
of zuccini, say about 5.5" (14 cm) x 1.5" (4 cm) and about 1/8" thick, into
the tank about 9pm  by the morning I have 2 rinds left! Trouble is the 2
Clown loaches and 4 SAEs and the Bala Shark all like the veggies too. I
will have to test the plecos plant damage by moving him to another tank
someday.

Olga
in Vancouver

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:04:40 -0600
From: Stephen Boulet <csb046 at lmpsil02_comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Dying Fish

>>Perhaps he/she meant flushing the fish *after* euthanizing it. That's
>what
>>I do.
>>
>> -- Stephen
>
>And how do you go about euthanizing your fish
>Stephen?

Putting it in a small container of tankwater, and putting that in the freezer.

- -- Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:41:09 -0500
From: "Darren R. Gold" <dargol at email_msn.com>
Subject: Re: Killing Fish

Olga wrote:
>>dropping very sick fishin very hot water <<

Oh Olga, please tell me you didn't season them too :-).  Actually, after I'm
done spending all my money on my 137 gallon plant tank, and if those guppies
in the little tank in the kitchen keep reproducing like, well, guppies, I
may have to resort to that for a cheap protein source :-).

I use the freezing method myself, being that I've seen my share of
disembodied but gasping fish heads in my fishing days.  Another method which
"seemed" to work well was to put the fish in a glass of water and drop in an
Alka-Seltzer tab.  I never had a fish give more than a flick of a tail fin
before dying using this method.  And you can always drink the Alka-Seltzer
afterward to calm the heartburn from that fish stew of yours ;-)

Darren

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:44:00 -0400
From: "Christopher Coleman" <christopher.coleman at worldnet_att.net>
Subject: Of Iron, chelators, and test kits

Hi,

I must have either too much time an overly inquisitive mind these days.

I have just got off the phone with Seachem technical support and been
informed that the Iron supplied in their Flourish line of products is non-
chelated, that it is ferrous  gluconate and that this makes it better than
many
other iron supplements which are chelated.

I was then reminded of the many posts on the APD which indicate that
neither the Lamotte or Hatch test kits test for chelated iron. Yet most of
us get measurable numbers from these test kits.

Could one of more chemically inclined APDers remove some of the
confusion surrounding the statements the test kit manufacturers are
making versus the results which we obtain in practice?  I have read that
it is possible the test kits can still be accurate, that the measurements
we get are as a result of the iron comming unchelated (is this a word?)
But if this is true, it raises the question, how fast and how completly
is the iron unchelated by the time we test it? (is it measuring all the
iron)

Additional questions regards iron I have:
  1)  in measurements I have made using Dupla in a
       bucket of tap water, the iron levels remain stable
       over a period of a week.  This seems to contradict
       what I have read that iron is unstable. Any insight?
 2)   Does anyone know if the Dupla products are
       chelated and by which chelate?
 3)   Is there really any benefit to non-chelated iron
       versus chelated ferrous iron?

Thanks

Christopher Coleman
christopher.coleman at worldnet_att.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:12:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Jennifer Glover <jglover at wam_umd.edu>
Subject: Killing fish

We were discussing the issue of humanely killing fish at work and one of
the guys here mentioned a way to euthenize fish.  Instead of freezing or
using boiling water, how about using alcohol or some other substance that
would kill instantly?  I know hard liquor maks my tongue go numb, so I
would imagine it would make the fish numb as well.  Plus the alcohol would
kill them pretty instantaneous.  I have never had the need to kill any
fish (they seem to be dying all on their own in my tank lately), so I
haven't had a chance to try this, but it might be like the gas chamber for
people.  Please don't flame me, I am just offering a completely
unresearched idea.

Jenn

* 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't. *

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 15:52:24 -0800
From: Mortimer Snerd <n9720235 at cc_wwu.edu>
Subject: Glossostigma vs liliaeopsis

At what hardness should a hobbyist consider using liliaeopsis (spelling?) over
glossostigma?  I have soft water, about 2 degrees hardness, but I raise the kH
to about 4 or 5 to stabilize things for my CO2 injection, as well as to raise
the amount of CO2 the water can absorb easily.  I'm guessing this
qualifies for glossostigma, but I'm not sure.  Also, how do the light
requirements of lili compare to the light hungry glosso, and exactly how much
light is needed to grow glosso, anyway?

Thanks in advance,
Justin Collins

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:56:12 PST
From: "Colin Anderson" <colin_d_anderson at hotmail_com>
Subject: Where do you draw the lines on hard/soft water

Hi:
     A recent statement by Karen Randall has left me unable to go 
without a good answer to this question.  She said that Lilaeopsis was a 
great substitute for gloss.. which was only good in the 'softer' waters.  
This is great information but to a relative newbie like myself it leaves 
a gaping question!

     So, the question is what is considered the middle of the line, 4, 
6, 8 degrees kh?  What would very hard be?  I've deduced extremely soft 
may be 0 deg. - pretty good start isn't it!  

An important issue in this is not to have a relative answer.  A lot of 
what I see on the list and even in books is relative(or severely biased) 
to the region we live in.  Thus whats good for the goose of often not 
good for the gander--that is without taking all factors into 
consideration(something a newbie's not good at).

I'll gladly summarise everyone's 'votes' on this issue, the more 
responses I receive the better our averaging should be!

While I'm at it, I'd like to know just how dependable the kh/ph/co2 
curve is.  I've seen disclaimers on FAQ's and articles citing test kit 
accuracy, gh-kh relationships and other 'its tough to put your finger on 
it' evidence.  

Does anyone have any resounding experience with the kH/pH/CO2 
curve--tales from the kH crypt?

Thanks in advance,

Colin Anderson

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:14:46 -0500
From: "Adam R. Novitt" <novitt at javanet_com>
Subject: Clams/ Lost adress

I have the snails and will send them.  I have lost your address in a reboot
please e mail me off list.  Your e mail was moon something @aol

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:28:21 +0800
From: Khew Sin Sun <khewss at singnet_com.sg>
Subject: Glosso

>That's exactly what Karen Randall told me during her presentation here
>in San Francisco, Wright.  She said she cannot grow Glosso in her hard
>Boston water, but that she can grow a Lilliaeopsis (sp.?) lawn quite
>easily.  In soft water, I have tried unsuccessfully for years under all
>sorts of conditions to grow a Lilliaeopsis lawn.  Even the mighty "muddy
>water" veteran, George Booth, once told he couldn't grow a Lilliaeopsis
>lawn in his soft Rocky Mountain runoff water!
>So I would like to ask the group, have any of you grown a Lilliaeopsis
>lawn in really soft water?  If yes, I would love to hear any details you
>might have.

Now that,that's mentioned,over here in Singapore,where the water's pretty
much soft..no wonder i've never seen any successful cultivation of
Lilliaeopsis. After planting (emersed),they would just lie there,not really
growing and not dying either..only to be infected by algae at some later
point until ,at the end,i would just "tear" out the whole carpet i'd
planted initially! :-P

I've seen lush carpets of it growing in the nature reserve here though. But
that's in submersed form.

Khew

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:23:10 -0600
From: "Tim and Karin Alonzo" <alonzo at altinet_net>
Subject: Dying Fish

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:53:03 -0500
From: "Darren R. Gold" <dargol at email_msn.com>
Subject: Re: Dying Fish

Richard Hostler wrote:
>Freezing to death for a fish is as unpleasant as it would be for you are I.
<

>Here's another fiercely debated topic :).  Actually, nobody knows for
>certain what a fish feels or doesn't feel.

In the book Aquariology - Fish Diseases and Water Chemistry Dr. John B.
Gratzek suggests two methods to killing fish. One is pithing, which is the
severing of the spinal cord  with a sharp instrument. The second, and a
method I will continue to use when necessary, is an anesthetic overdose. In
this case two Alka-Seltzer tablets in 17 to 34 oz. of water will initially
anesthetize and eventually kill the fish.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 23:28:42 -0500
From: Christopher Ferrell <csferrel at eos_ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #626

I have an Amazon Sword plant that is growing quite well.  I developed a stem
growth from the center of the plant.  So far, along this stem two other leaf
sections have developed.  Can I get new plants from these growths?  If so, how
do I go about it?  Thanks for your help.

Chris
csferrel at eos_ncsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:41:13 -0500
From: "Peter W O'Dwyer jnr" <odwyerpw at francomm_com>
Subject: RE: killing fish - was dying fish

I agree with OLGA, about 10 years ago I had a long lived Oscar, 11" in
length.  When moving into a new apartment, I grew a little neglectful and
left him in a five gallon bucket for a few days.  I'm quite embarrassed to
even recall it.  He quickly developed severe lesions on his head and body.
While racing to set up the 55gal tank I shattered the glass.  Knowing I
would not have a place for him soon, I decided the humane thing to do was to
put him out of his misery.  I consulted a vet and he prescribed placing him
in the freezer.  It was approx. -15 degF that day, so I placed him on the
back deck.  He never flinched.  Just passed away.
Haven't kept large fish since.  They are a huge bio load and tough on
plants.
Peter

------------------------------

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